PvP Balance

I want to shift your gaze from trying to put a bandaid on parry and evasion, and tackle the root of the problem that has made pvp suck.

Currently there are about 4 strong templates.

Melee/Archer w/ evasion
Evasion Mage
Evasion Mystic
Melee/Mystic w/ Evasion

All templates only possible with a huge amount of skill increase.
I recall a few years ago, these are the templates I would see.

Necromage, Necrodexxer, Necroarcher, Parrymage,alchymage,scribemage, chivmage, ninjamage, melee dexxer, melee archer, melee/archers, mysticmage, mystic weaver, weavermage, weaver/melee, weaver archer, tamermage, tamerdexxer,tamerarcher, weaving tamer, ninja tamer, bushido dexxers, AND MANY MORE. 

The difference? In those days suit building had a cost to benefit ratio for skill point increase that they currently do not have.

This is trash. Trash for diversity. Trash for fun. 

You have a problem with evasion and parry? This is where you hit it. Most of these templates are not possible without completely unreasonable amounts of skill increase.

My proposal? Introduce a hard skill cap from items. Simple. Elegant. 
Coupled with a few small tweaks, like a cool down period for splintering, we can make pvp fun again.

Ill pause for applause and check back later.
@Kyronix

PS Don't try to nitpick about 'strength' - Templates without weaknesses should not exist.

Comments

  • BilboBilbo Posts: 1,828
    How to fix PvP, fight the way way real PvPers did pre AoS and not they way the EvEers do today. There is no such thing as PvP in UO today it is all about the equipment and not the person.
  • LearnMeLearnMe Posts: 19
    And this is the issue with posters here.  A glaring misunderstanding of cause and effect. 

    Five templates you listed are tamers.  They aren't used because pets went from stupid overpowered, to nerfed into the ground and they're just an ineffective template.  Guess how much skill increase the THREE tamers I've seen left pvping on Atlantic use? 80+

    Then you list a variety of mage templates, none of which are gone due to skill increase.  Why would anyone play a parry mage when they can be bush parry for increased parry and confidence on the run?  Why would anyone play ANY variation of mage without parry at all when dexxers and archers can all have max damage, max swing, AND 30-60 splinter?  You would never get a spell off.

    People play discorders, deathstrikers, lp melee dexxers, chiv dexxers, disarm archers, weave nox archers, necro bush dexxers, stealth weave throwers, mystic shield bash mages, mystic parry weave mage, etc.  

    Every conversation in our discord that starts with "man I want to make a new character..." the next line inevitably is "well it has to have bush parry, what else can I fit?"  We have some cool mystic evade mages and weave ninja evade mages and the like.  I can guarantee you if you took away half of the 100 skill inc the toons take, it wouldn't be bush/parry we dropped.  That is the single most important part.  
  • LearnMeLearnMe Posts: 19
    Not to mention the mystic dexxer you mentioned? Takes 30 skill increase to build.
    Bokuto mage? Takes 30 skill increase to build.
    Want to play an evasion mage that doesn't use specials?  Doesn't take ANY skill increase to build.

    Want to cause problems for people with skill increase? Run a discorder.
  • The_Higgs_1The_Higgs_1 Posts: 315
    Evasion on any template other then pure melee is a sign that people cant actually pvp anymore.  Its become "I lost my ability to skillfully win a fight so now I just press evade and speed away".  The same can be said for the people who just spam splinter with focus attack.   There just isn't any talented players left, just people relying on broken mechanics to make up for their lack of skill.
  • NikardNikard Posts: 83
    LearnMe said:
    And this is the issue with posters here.  A glaring misunderstanding of cause and effect. 

    Five templates you listed are tamers.  They aren't used because pets went from stupid overpowered, to nerfed into the ground and they're just an ineffective template.  Guess how much skill increase the THREE tamers I've seen left pvping on Atlantic use? 80+

    Then you list a variety of mage templates, none of which are gone due to skill increase.  Why would anyone play a parry mage when they can be bush parry for increased parry and confidence on the run?  Why would anyone play ANY variation of mage without parry at all when dexxers and archers can all have max damage, max swing, AND 30-60 splinter?  You would never get a spell off.

    People play discorders, deathstrikers, lp melee dexxers, chiv dexxers, disarm archers, weave nox archers, necro bush dexxers, stealth weave throwers, mystic shield bash mages, mystic parry weave mage, etc.  

    Every conversation in our discord that starts with "man I want to make a new character..." the next line inevitably is "well it has to have bush parry, what else can I fit?"  We have some cool mystic evade mages and weave ninja evade mages and the like.  I can guarantee you if you took away half of the 100 skill inc the toons take, it wouldn't be bush/parry we dropped.  That is the single most important part.  
    There is a whole bunch wrong with this mess. Mostly I think you didnt comprehend my post.

    Im gonna type this in a real simple way so you understand.

    Mage + Parry = Good for game
    -Lots of defense -->Strength
    -Medium/Low offense --> Weakness
    -Medium/High utility --> Strength

    Mage + Parry + Bushido + Mysticsm = Bad for game
    -Best defense in game
    -Best damage in game
    -Best utility in game
    [NO WEAKNESS]

    Why would anybody make any template that is not this one, when this is allowed to exist? How can you possibly have diversity?

    Now I said strong template, and you listed a bunch of weak ones, so Ill ignore that. You said you cant play a mage without parry, thats a personal handicap and not something the game can be balanced around [sorry]. Play a dexxer if mages are too hard.

    "It wouldnt be bush/parry we dropped." - Perfect, play a bush mage.

    Please have someone explain my post to you in your native language so we get somewhere on your next reply.
  • ezikelezikel Posts: 48
    right now the pvp  is boring and a little stupid .
    • the spam of splinter with or without focus attack for 0 mana and its bleed and slow you !!
    • op gear that only a small % can buy
    • tamer useless in pvp. the only person who plays tamer is not because are strong but only fun to play
    • magery mastery on pet only make pet froze and spam death ray
    • archer can kill barely anyone with parry
    • riding swipe it should only be heal the damage received by the hit, not all the damage that follows
    • 4/6 remove curse should be slow down
    • a bokuto , a woodand sword ,hit faster,hit harder that any other swords and paralyze a little bit stupid
    • they dont really ave any difference between the minimum skill vs 120 .60 or 120 tactic change nothing
    • the timer on nova need to be remove
    • wall in open field need a timer
    • evade need a tune down
    • shatter pot need to be deleted
    • when you teleports, you should not be able to swing a hit straight away
    • remove parry from the restriction list for pure mage
    • make scrib usefull again
  • hunter11hunter11 Posts: 107
    also loot nerf didn't help any of the templates 
  • LearnMeLearnMe Posts: 19
    Nikard said:
    LearnMe said:
    And this is the issue with posters here.  A glaring misunderstanding of cause and effect. 

    Five templates you listed are tamers.  They aren't used because pets went from stupid overpowered, to nerfed into the ground and they're just an ineffective template.  Guess how much skill increase the THREE tamers I've seen left pvping on Atlantic use? 80+

    Then you list a variety of mage templates, none of which are gone due to skill increase.  Why would anyone play a parry mage when they can be bush parry for increased parry and confidence on the run?  Why would anyone play ANY variation of mage without parry at all when dexxers and archers can all have max damage, max swing, AND 30-60 splinter?  You would never get a spell off.

    People play discorders, deathstrikers, lp melee dexxers, chiv dexxers, disarm archers, weave nox archers, necro bush dexxers, stealth weave throwers, mystic shield bash mages, mystic parry weave mage, etc.  

    Every conversation in our discord that starts with "man I want to make a new character..." the next line inevitably is "well it has to have bush parry, what else can I fit?"  We have some cool mystic evade mages and weave ninja evade mages and the like.  I can guarantee you if you took away half of the 100 skill inc the toons take, it wouldn't be bush/parry we dropped.  That is the single most important part.  
    There is a whole bunch wrong with this mess. Mostly I think you didnt comprehend my post.

    Im gonna type this in a real simple way so you understand.

    Mage + Parry = Good for game
    -Lots of defense -->Strength
    -Medium/Low offense --> Weakness
    -Medium/High utility --> Strength

    Mage + Parry + Bushido + Mysticsm = Bad for game
    -Best defense in game
    -Best damage in game
    -Best utility in game
    [NO WEAKNESS]

    Why would anybody make any template that is not this one, when this is allowed to exist? How can you possibly have diversity?

    Now I said strong template, and you listed a bunch of weak ones, so Ill ignore that. You said you cant play a mage without parry, thats a personal handicap and not something the game can be balanced around [sorry]. Play a dexxer if mages are too hard.

    "It wouldnt be bush/parry we dropped." - Perfect, play a bush mage.

    Please have someone explain my post to you in your native language so we get somewhere on your next reply.
    I know that you have a difficult time grasping the big picture of things. So when you list 40 random templates you've seen played over the course of the years, then I list a plethora of templates I see being played TODAY that you say don't get played because of "x" problem, you fail to see the correlation.  

    I will make one point at a time and let you attempt to refute it.  The MAIN point of your post is suggesting that skill increase is the main issue in pvp today, correct? (yes or no answer is all I need here.) So you say this:

    "Currently there are about 4 strong templates.

    Melee/Archer w/ evasion
    Evasion Mage
    Evasion Mystic
    Melee/Mystic w/ Evasion"

    Melee archer the way the two people I know run it needs 0-40 skill increase depending on your preferences.
    Evasion Mage needs 10 skill increase if you want to add an additional GM skill to it.
    Melee Evasion Mystic needs 30 skill increase.  

    BOY, out of 7 slots that you can get skill increase from, you need a max of two of those slots for 3/4 "strong templates" you listed.  What an absurd amount of skill increase.
  • LearnMeLearnMe Posts: 19
    You guys all swear that evasion isn't an issue, but then list every "strong" or "viable" template as being an evasion something.  Weird.
  • CetricCetric Posts: 110
    edited October 17
    The posts by players that pvp consistently have a more grounded experience.  Nikard, i know you don't pvp much if at all anymore, and your evaluation of templates seems outdated.  When you did you pretty much just played a mystic, sat in protection-stone form and tried to laugh at ppl dumping you.  This is hardly the normal pvp that occurs. ezikiel and learnme are a bit more spot on.

    While i can agree the 830+ skill chars are a bit ridiculous, they get absolutely demolished by a good discord dexer.  i personally wouldnt mind seeing like a +80/800 skill cap, but it think the problem becomes, how do you prioritize skills?  what if you have +15 provo on a good jewel, now that effects your cap?  kinda dumb.  The reason ppl pump so much skill is to fit in bush/parry into everything and anything - why?  because 30/60 splinter will get you demolished.  You hurt that, people gravitate towards other things, or maybe even less skill inc/more other stuff like eaters/cf.
  • quickbladequickblade Posts: 33
    edited October 17
    ezikel said:
    right now the pvp  is boring and a little stupid .
    • the spam of splinter with or without focus attack for 0 mana and its bleed and slow you !!
    • op gear that only a small % can buy
    • tamer useless in pvp. the only person who plays tamer is not because are strong but only fun to play
    • magery mastery on pet only make pet froze and spam death ray
    • archer can kill barely anyone with parry
    • riding swipe it should only be heal the damage received by the hit, not all the damage that follows
    • 4/6 remove curse should be slow down
    • a bokuto , a woodand sword ,hit faster,hit harder that any other swords and paralyze a little bit stupid
    • they dont really ave any difference between the minimum skill vs 120 .60 or 120 tactic change nothing
    • the timer on nova need to be remove
    • wall in open field need a timer
    • evade need a tune down
    • shatter pot need to be deleted
    • when you teleports, you should not be able to swing a hit straight away
    • remove parry from the restriction list for pure mage
    • make scrib usefull again
    Ezikel nailed it right there, it pretty much sums up the pvp for the last years.

    Remember how splintering used to be even stronger and proccing on disarm or stacking with other bleeds, and yes when you think about it : 0 mana cost, bleed and slow , its like having a frenzy whirlwind + bleed special moves for free at same time on a single weapon property.

    Also how the devs let these 9-13+mods items drop for many years in the game, maybe without even knowing about them dropping, then ninja nerf the drop on them, to tell us years later they don't want that crap in the game, well done devs well done.

    absolutly agree on tamers being worthless, unless yea, unless they have parry and bush, which lead to my next point.

    Bokuto, a small rod of wood doing as much damage as a metal kryss. On an average damage, if you count the base damage from the stick, nerve strike is basically a 30ish AI + paralize strike special moves together. If the speed of the bokuto was like 3.0 or somehting , I'd understand, but that much damage with the paralize coming from a 2s weapon it's just too much. Time to tune it down a little.

    Evade from bushido as well could use a tune down I agree , when most templates gravitate around bushido, making a single spell like that so strong , parry and bushido together provides so much defense while having all the offense they want with nerve strike.

    Lots of masteries for pets poorly designed yes, maybe it's time to review some of them and fix some of bugs (im thinking of spellweaving pets casting word of death of themselves)

    Novas and conflag was fine before, alchemy was useful. Maybe they should even make nova non-vvv. It took me 6 greater cure with alchemy other day to cure lethal, whats the point of having alchemy when it takes me as much to cure without alchemy. Hell my mystic healing stone heal for more, than my alchemy greater heals.

    Shatter, the potion anti-potion. How contradictory and troll this item is. What happens if you shatter someone with shatter potions in his inventory, do you remove them ? It's just being rediculous
    Remove this  even make alchemy worse that it is already.
    or make it resistable with resisting spells like you can resist a exploding tar or greater confusion potion. Time to review all them and make alchemy great again, if you want to keep shatter in the game ( which im not for) at least make it have alchemy vs resisting spells or something , a simple calculation just so there can be a counter to it. for exemple : 100 alchemy vs 120 resisting spells would have 50% of the current shatter effect, 0 alchemy vs 120 resist would have 20% of the current effect or a strong chance to completly shrugs the effects, 100 alchemy vs 0 resist spell would have 80% of the current effect. Im just throwing ideas and numbers.
  • The_Higgs_1The_Higgs_1 Posts: 315
    I personally think 4/6 chivalry and weaving should go away these days.  In the old days those were just utility and didn't have a huge impact on pvp, since masteries came out they become way more powerful.  Time to delete 4/6 in UO for good.  2/6 Cap for everything now.
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 344
    I personally think 4/6 chivalry and weaving should go away these days.  In the old days those were just utility and didn't have a huge impact on pvp
    In the old days, we had 4/6 dp parry holy light spamming AI deathstrikers. Annoying and effective and not exactly what I would call "just utility".
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