Poll and Discuss: Do we want EJ on Siege?

TanagerTanager Posts: 264
edited March 2018 in Siege
A full list of EJ restrictions is up now here https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/publish-notes/publish-99/

There are quite a few restrictions that surprised me, but also some permissions that I did not expect. This thread however pertains to the restriction that prevents EJ from coming to Siege. It does not say it directly, but I would not assume that existing characters can be accessed by a returning player on an EJ account. I think it means NO EJ - period.

The list is not carved in stone, so I'd like to open a discussion on it - starting with allowing EJ on Siege.

Siege is the shard that is the most like the old days. (Mugen has Trammel, but with Fel rules, and the shiny things that go with Trammel.) Those folks playing... erm... ''other'' shards of the Gem would probably be the most interested in the Siege rule set. Many of our veteran players have ended up on those shores. EJ would (hopefully) bring back a lot of veteran players but also a lot of fresh names. Not being bound by a subscription fee allows for a freedom in RP and PvP from people who mostly play elsewhere but enjoy Siege from time to time. The scripters and abusers can be hunted down by Virtue and Vice alike. PvPers boost the economy. A healthy economy means more shops, which tends to mean more players overall. More players mean more RP and people to PvM with. More ''prey'' means more PvP, and thus the cycle escalates. If you watch the cycles of Siege, it always starts and ends with the PvP population. Sure it also means more trash talk, but that is what the ignore button is for - and that button will have a lot more power soon.

On the other hand, the list calls paid accounts Veteran, and Siege and Mugen are considered Veteran shards. If EJ boosts the overall population of UO, then perhaps we would see an increase in Siege population from folks willing to pay to be on our shard. There won't be any armies of spontaneous EJ characters at IDOCs, characters made solely for a solo spellweaving focus, unpaid accounts with alts whose only purpose is to craft, or an influx of script farmers. In fact, I assume (could be wrong) that EJ will replace the 2 week trial entirely, and that would remove quite a few abuses of that system on Siege.

I honestly have not decided which is better... yes or no for EJ on Siege.

Any opinions?

  1. Do you want Endless Journey on Siege?34 votes
    1. Yes
      52.94%
    2. No
      47.06%
«1

Comments

  • BilboBilbo Posts: 1,265
    FIRST  NO
  • Very well written, Tanager.  I voted YES for several reasons:

    I feel throughout all these years of slow decline, if there was ever a speck of hope to get back some of the population of UO in general and Siege,  this is it.  

    Resource scripters would seem kill able, for the most part, and it appears they can only get basic resources as it is.  Without being able to sell to NPC's they will probably be deterred as the desire for those things from players is pretty slim.  Plus with all the scripting on regular shards, if they wanted to script here, they already have subscriptions and could be doing so.  I would be surprised if there are lines of scripters waiting for free to play to try Siege, I just don't see it.

    Most importantly, I'm concerned it requires a subscription to see Siege on the shard list, even if you were a previous veteran, therefore there is nothing to bring back all of our lost Siege players.  Much easier to convince someone to retry Siege when there is no cost involved. 

    If Siege is just not visible to a strict, new EJ account that has never subscribed in the past, then I could be OK, either yes or no.

     
  • I voted yes but if they will not change it, i hope at least returning player with already a char on SP can use it :) ... My only doubt is the access to General Chat. I hope will not ruin that channel :p
  • FrejaSPFrejaSP Posts: 18

    Yes

    I do not understand why they decided not to allow to create EJ chars on Siege.

    I hope they will changes that and I sure hope, they will allow old inactive accounts with chars on Siege to login on Siege.

    Siege need it's share of this EJ accounts and I'm sure we will welcome them and help them get started. Siege have always been helpful to young chars.

    I would like to ask Devs why they decided not to allow new EJ accounts on Siege, it is very sad and do not make sense at all..

    I'm not worried about General Chat, it have always been a problem on Siege, that Trial accounts could not use it.

  • I voted no. - I would love people, who got already a character on Siege, once they are login in to join us. - But I don´t like that people which create new accounts just to spoil our fun. 
    There are already lots, who did mis-using 14 days accounts by logging and blocking houses,... etc.

    Happy to have more people on Siege. But the ones, who wants to play with us... not those, which likes to annoy us.
  • TanagerTanager Posts: 264
    edited March 2018
    There are many dormant characters on Siege who, when they played here, were not enjoyable. "Spoiling our fun" has always been fun to some folks. If we see ANY significant raise in population at all, EVER, for ANY reason, there will be a percentage of those types in the mix. There is really no way to avoid it, except to welcome and encourage constructive players so that they outnumber the destructive ones.

    Trying to shield oneself from all risk of harm often also means shielding oneself from growth.
  • RazzputonRazzputon Posts: 18

    I'm selling my vote to the highest bidder.

    Reserve is set at 20mil.






  • MissEMissE Posts: 286
    I have a few friends who left UO who would possibly have come back to play if it was free.  They couldn't justify paying when their playtime was so severly restricted to a few hours a week or so.  I am playing here now so if they came back either I would need to go back to prodo or they wouldn't bother.  

    My biggest problem with EJ and why it is gonna be a total fail is that characters do not even get a simple bank to put a few items in, pots, petals, spare weapons, armor etc.  I wouldn't return on that basis, even to prodo shard. 

    It is not like other games where you die all the stuff held on your character remains, cannot be looted and the character doesn't have weight restrictions like UO does.  I mean WOW, Diablo, etc you have slots to carry stuff and have to toss out stuff once  you get full and be selective in what you keep etc, but as I said, the whole lot doesnt' go poof if you die, nor be looted by pixel mobs you kill etc.   No bank is a fail, and if they think people will 'pay' for basic vaults or whatever I would doubt it.  If they wanna pay every month then the $10 bucks for the sub would get paid, if it is less than that to 'hire' a vault then what is the point? 

    Not even minimal storage to me will make the whole prospect fail unless it is existing subscribing players just having a few EJ chars. 

    I voted yes for here, but that is purely due to having friends that may of come back.  I won't bother trying to persuade them if it isnt' on siege.
  • TanagerTanager Posts: 264
    edited March 2018
    One of the reasons that the free to play concept it is so successful is that a lot of people do not have a lot of time for games. They cannot justify the expense of a few hours a week or month for a subscription fee in what is often a tight family budget. However, they are ok to play for free and occasionally splurge $1 here or $5 there on a digital treat.

    Other folks like variety, and play a game depending on their mood for that day. With such a huge selection of MMOs now, many games have chosen to tempt a small amount of time (and money) from a large group of people rather than the larger subscription fee from a smaller group.

    When enough people are doing this, it adds up - many MMOs have switched to pure F2P cuz it is actually more lucrative than being a subscription game. EJ is so restrictive that it cannot be called free to play, and BS is not calling it that. It holds the door open so that people on the street can smell the wonderful food and step inside for a few free samples. For some, that's enough to make them happy and they can stop by every day for their little sample. But if they want an actual meal, then they need to pay up. Clever people can often find ways to make a meal out of samples.

    THIS is the time to test the restrictions, to make suggestions, to voice an opinion. EJ is not set in concrete yet - and even after it goes live, I expect many tweaks. This is a huge milestone for UO, and I really think EJ will do more good than harm for Sosaria.
  • TanagerTanager Posts: 264
    Also, I see a mod has cleaned up the mess I made the other day on the forum. Thank you!
  • Meh. Its not enough. I don't see a lot of people returning full time like myself under the proposed restrictions for EJ.

    I understand that BS doesn't want to get rid of their safety wheels subscription model.. but the f2p that EJ proposes is not enough. Give EJ players a bank box with limited storage and no house placement.

    There is still some more wiggle room that needs to be addressed before EJ works.

  • Garth_GreyGarth_Grey Posts: 567
    edited March 2018
    Meh. Its not enough. I don't see a lot of people returning full time like myself under the proposed restrictions for EJ.

    I understand that BS doesn't want to get rid of their safety wheels subscription model.. but the f2p that EJ proposes is not enough. Give EJ players a bank box with limited storage and no house placement.

    There is still some more wiggle room that needs to be addressed before EJ works.

    No one ever assumed you would  return "fulltime" :p
    You and Several Others like this.
    pirate

    Please make the Grizzled Mare a 5 slot mount, it's incredibly rare and deserves it.
  •    I don't think it's much of a surprise, but no...I do not want to see free to play on siege...I actually like subscription based gaming, since it keeps a lot of drama away. A great deal of free to play games are loaded with drama and trolling since there is little or nothing for them to lose..They will make accounts to just to troll...however, I do see that since they are allowed to be in gen chat in the other servers this may bring in a subscription players to siege. So, this no character creation on siege could be a great thing for us. 

       Perhaps the EJ program may bring in more revenue to UO and I hope that is the case. I honestly can't think of any f2p that isn't loaded with cheat programs, trolling, and a huge lack of game support(normally none). We all know there isn't much support for UO as is... I fear without a boost in game support that it would stress an already cracked system to just break down. We've already lost multiple players due to this support we have, which is sadly good by comparison, so stressing that may cause a few of what we have to quit or...really snap. "not just tossing stars into the ocean" (yeah...i seen staff toss someone in the ocean for comments they did not like) 
    funny maybe... but far far from professional and shows no concern for the overall game.

    Just my thoughts on this. Good Post Tanager. 
      You have earned a BLT!!! don't worry i'll eat the bacon :D


      
  • IanJamesIanJames Posts: 2
    I think the current restrictions will limit people from having f2p resource scripters, which is the main concern on Siege. I do think it would be nice for folks to log in and be able to say hi or hang out with friends now and then without having to have a subscription.

    I do hope this model will bring some cash into the game.  
  • could we have a dev comment on whether returning Siege players that have a Siege char on an account that is eligible for EJ will be able to log in on Siege?
    I actually like the fact that people can't create multiple new EJ chars on Siege but I would hate to see returning Siege players completely excluded from EJ...
  • FrejaSPFrejaSP Posts: 18

    I really hope they will allow both old and new players on EJ accounts on Siege.

    As I read it, EJ accounts can't gathering colored ore and wood, I guess it will count for leather too.

    Also: Can participate in VvV but do not gain occupation points in active towns

    I don't understand why they do not allow new EJ chars on Siege.

  • TanagerTanager Posts: 264
    The Newsletter is up, and YAY!!!! Thank you @Mesanna ; and Devs!!  <3

    3.  We will be allowing EJ accounts to log into Siege.
  • since they will be allowed on Siege the next issue is being unable to access bank boxes. this will be a deal breaker for any old player who has soulstones in the bank box. Also with no secure storage at all EJ players will never be able to risk leaving guardzone. I say let them use their bank box. Living out of a bank box is hard enough already but at least it will let you store the most important stuff you need to play on Siege.
  • TanagerTanager Posts: 264
    The newsletter said they are also addressing storage, but that it would be in a later update after EJ. In the meantime, the alternatives that I see are:

    1) EJ need to be told NOT to purchase a SS token from the online store OR a player, since a fresh SS is sent to bank box before it can be used. BS can remove that item from EJ version of the store, or change the code to have all SS go to backpack instead. In the meantime tho, best to avoid a potential issue imo unless this is changed before publish 99.

    2) EJ can use a character, sitting on a beetle, to store items, and leave said character and their worldly goods hidden in a nice safe place. Their main char (on a different account in the case of Siege) is then free to roam Sosaria while still having the reassurance of back-up gear and supplies. EJ life would still be a simple life, but some folks find a simple life to be refreshing.

    3) EJ cannot create a guild, but they are allowed to join one. Joining a guild that is large enough to have a subscribed player online most of the time will allow a guild to set up a ''guild bank'' system that officers can access on behalf of their EJ members. Or EJ can just make friends who don't mind storing things for them :)

    4) EJ cannot use com deeds. They also cannot harvest colored ores and woods themselves. Players can begin selling un-deeded materials, potions, etc, in fairly small (lightweight) batches for EJ crafters. An ambitious EJ player might be able to barter larger quantities of what they CAN harvest (or hunt) in exchange for lesser amounts of higher grade materials.Picking chaga mushshrooms is not difficult, but can be a bit tedious. I'd trade some colored lumber from my vet tree stump to save the time harvesting shrooms, for example.

    5) EJ cannot earn vet rewards, but they CAN use them  - just like an underage subscriber can use a vet reward that they cannot yet claim themselves. Things like tree stumps and ore carts would be useless since they cannot have a house or be co-owned, but I can see many other items going up in value as a direct result of EJ players.

    With a bit of creativity, I can see EJ being a very good thing for the community and the economy. I know there will be some negative aspects as well, but I'm focused on positive reinforcement to encourage constructive things, and just ignoring the negative until they either get bored and go away or adapt to Siege culture. Or we can just murder them :wink: 
  • TanagerTanager Posts: 264
    Just to correct my earlier post - EJ can NOT mount a beetle that is storing an item. Oh, well. They can still hand things to an alt to carry, for back up gear and supplies. A very simple life, but RPers and PvPers really don't need THAT much, do they? (As for crafters, well, they have it a bit rough lol.)
  • Garth_GreyGarth_Grey Posts: 567
    So now you think EJ'rs can just log in 2 accounts and hold hands, and their gaming experience will be just fine ? :-)
    You and Several Others like this.
    pirate

    Please make the Grizzled Mare a 5 slot mount, it's incredibly rare and deserves it.
  • Tanager said:
    PvPers really don't need THAT much, do they?
    completely disagree! PvPers need replacement suits and large stacks of all the consumables. Anyone who pvps with only one or no replacement suit at all does it wrong. Potions alone weigh A LOT!
  • InLorInLor Posts: 346
    EJ on Siege: yes.
    Limited bank storage for EJ players: yes.
    A qua lemmúr wíste, an zen anku vol verde wís.
  • TanagerTanager Posts: 264
    I think PvP is possible with several backup suits and a few kegs worth of pots stashed on an alt.

    Can they PvP for 12 hours straight? No.
    Is that backup char at risk of being found? Yes.
    If there is demand, might player vendors start stocking more potions and aids? Yes.
    Can they make friends or join a guild that plays around the same time as they do? Yes.
    Is there anything at all to do on Siege besides PvP? Yes.

    An EJ player would have to stock supplies regularly, and then fight until they run out. Done with PvP for the day, or they restock. It's a LIMIT, because it is FREE.

    It is not impossible.

    I'm not saying some form of secure storage is not important for the ultimate success of EJ - it is. But we don't have it now, and it might be a long way off (if ever). In the meantime, "can't never could do anything."
  • TanagerTanager Posts: 264
  • BoBoBoBo Posts: 13
    Tanager said:
    I think PvP is possible with several backup suits and a few kegs worth of pots stashed on an alt.

    Can they PvP for 12 hours straight? No.
    Is that backup char at risk of being found? Yes.
    If there is demand, might player vendors start stocking more potions and aids? Yes.
    Can they make friends or join a guild that plays around the same time as they do? Yes.
    Is there anything at all to do on Siege besides PvP? Yes.

    An EJ player would have to stock supplies regularly, and then fight until they run out. Done with PvP for the day, or they restock. It's a LIMIT, because it is FREE.

    It is not impossible.

    I'm not saying some form of secure storage is not important for the ultimate success of EJ - it is. But we don't have it now, and it might be a long way off (if ever). In the meantime, "can't never could do anything."

    Tanager the pvp authority has spoken!  thanks for sharing your insight into an aspect of the game you don't do.  Great how you can form opinions on a subject you know nothing about. 

    case in point your first question

    Can they pvp for 12 hours straight? No---- Oh really the Bo guesses you don't remember the old factions system.  oh wait you don't pvp how would you remember something you prolly never done. 


  • BoBoBoBo Posts: 13
    Meh. Its not enough. I don't see a lot of people returning full time like myself under the proposed restrictions for EJ.

    I understand that BS doesn't want to get rid of their safety wheels subscription model.. but the f2p that EJ proposes is not enough. Give EJ players a bank box with limited storage and no house placement.

    There is still some more wiggle room that needs to be addressed before EJ works.

    No one ever assumed you would  return "fulltime" :p

    Bo plays pretty regularly and all hours of the day.  Bo hasn't seen this turkey.  When did he leave and did he even come back?  Bo thinks he's one of those board warriors that reminisces about how great he was back in the day. 
  • Tanager said:
    I think PvP is possible with several backup suits and a few kegs worth of pots stashed on an alt.
    Do you know how much potion kegs weigh? You can't carry "several backup suits and a few kegs" on an alt simply because of the weight limit! This doesn't even take into account other consumables like enchanted apples, orange petals etc.

    Tanager said:
    If there is demand, might player vendors start stocking more potions and aids? Yes.
    This has to happen the other way around! Vendors need to be stocked before EJ players come because if not they will take a look around, realize that they're screwed because while they can farm gold, there is little PvP stuff they can buy with that and leave again.
    Sure, there are some who will ask questions in gc but the majority will just look around and leave because they're not used to asking for handouts and advice.

    Tanager said:
    Can they make friends or join a guild that plays around the same time as they do? Yes.
    Theoretically they can but in reality not many PvP guilds are interested in recruiting new people they have no history with into their guild - bit of a trust issue.

    Tanager said:
    Is there anything at all to do on Siege besides PvP? Yes.
    This brings up another problem of PvP on Siege. Most returning PvPers come from a UO era that didn't require endless farming so you can pvp. Most played during faction days which still allowed for a playstyle where you only needed limited farming abilities to buy faction artifacts.
    Today UO absolutely requires you to farm which is a problem for most PvP templates in the first place - solution: either have alts or lots of soulstones. It is questionable though whether EJ players would want to invest into a lot of soulstones...
    The next problem is storage: in order to farm you need equipment, to make that equipment you need imbuing ingredients and an imbuer - there aren't too many crafters offering custom services to other players. Then once you have the farming equipment you need to collect whatever ingredients you need for imbuing your PvP gear.
    All of this takes up large ammounts of storage space - which is not available to EJ players.
     
    Theoretically this is a market that could be covered by dedicated crafters who offer custom services to other players because every template and playstyle has it's own special requirements when it comes to suits. If that were the case EJ players could simply concentrate on farming gold so they can just buy stuff.
    In reality however, there are little to no crafters who offer these services and those that do often times have no clue about PvP suits whatsoever. To make things worse returning players also have no clue what a modern day PvP suit looks like and can't even tell the crafter what to craft! I cringe everytime I see some of the suits some people try to pvp with - and not because they're cheap but because they are not tailored towards the template of the player. Sure I could help and make suits for other people but I don't enjoy crafting. To me it's a necessary evil that I try to avoid as much as possible. I will craft 5 backup suits one day and then be done with it for a month or more.

  • Garth_GreyGarth_Grey Posts: 567
    edited April 2018
    Your crafting comments fall in line with my  "Community Crafter" comment I made in another thread. That's what we need, not another vendor full of basic lrc suits.
    You and Several Others like this.
    pirate

    Please make the Grizzled Mare a 5 slot mount, it's incredibly rare and deserves it.
  • TanagerTanager Posts: 264
    edited April 2018
    I am not going to argue with the PvPers who insist that a huge stock of gear and supplies must be stored in one bank or on one character in order for a casual player to enjoy a couple hours of PvP on Siege. My opinions on alternative play styles and creative work-arounds have always been and will continue to feel worthless.

    In any case, that topic is moot. It has been announced that EJ will have some secure storage. They said this at the 20th anni party, but clearly that aspect was delayed at launch. I wrongly assumed it would be a long delay and I wish they could have communicated a little better, but it is what it is.

    Instead, my focus is on players who understand they are playing for free and as such they have limitations - and that some templates and play styles are more limited than others. This is why UWSP is trying to find and talk to as many EJ and returning players that we can in order to help them work with what is available and hopefully improve the population and economy. People are not going to stock suits and supplies that just eat up fees - the demand must be there first. That's just the way it works with our current vendor fee system. There is also a significant portion of Siege crafters who are not interested in supplying folks who are going to kill and loot them and their friends.

    We are very aware of the trust issues regarding griefers and scammers, and we are willing to take that risk to at least partially vet them on behalf of the community. We have been preparing for this since EJ was first announced.
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