Remove Trap Fails

Drowy

My character seems to fail 99% of the time the maximum numbers in remove trap on the chests with 100 Skill.

So once at Stash map chests, twice at Supply, thrice at Cache and four times at Hoard. Havent tried Trove yet.

Is this normal, did I trigger the fail somehow or is my character bugged?

CovenantX

100% success rate if you know the timing for each map level.

timing is different based on your Remove Trap skill vs the level of T-map.

Drowy

What timing are you talking of? I start remove trap, wait the 10 seconds and if I failed, I start it again. Where can I time something?

CovenantX

It depends When you use remove trap

CovenantX

the timing starts when the initial spawn pops after digging up a chest.

I don't know the exact timing on Trove or Hoard maps yet, because before I figured out it was 100% timing-based, I had already run out of those level maps... I did do a hoard map in malas once, spawned 19 Ancient chest guardians.   that's when I realized I was trying to do the maps waaaaaaaaaaaay too f***ing fast.  It was because I'd try to remove trap as soon as and as often as I could.

So, your Remove Trap skill is factored when you dig up the chest, the reason I know this, is because the timing is different if you try with 0 (human 20.0) or 100.0 RT skill.  -also would explain why only the 'digger' can remove the trap.

the exact timing for a supply map is 1 minute (at 100.0 RT & ~5minutes at 0 (human 20 RT))  after the initial spawn pops.  if you 'use' remove trap skill on the chest at 53 seconds or later the skill-check will finish at 60-61s and you will never get a guardian to spawn.

- games too ez.

Drowy

Ty, will have a look into that.

TimSt

@CovenantX you are saying that if I defeat the supply chest guardians within 10 seconds I should wait 50 seconds before using my 100 remove trap skill?

CovenantX

TimSt said:

@ CovenantX you are saying that if I defeat the supply chest guardians within 10 seconds I should wait 50 seconds before using my 100 remove trap skill?

  That's exactly what I'm saying otherwise you will fail and spawn a guardian every single time until  minute has passed. (on supply maps at 100.0 RT)

MissE

How stupid is that.

Kirthag

I don't understand why everyone calls it "a fail"...

The devs said that RT will no longer be pass or fail, but a timed system. The Higher your RT, the less time it takes to actually remove the trap (and hence the less spawn).

I've not timed anything, but I have noticed that the higher RT my toon has, the shorter the time spent on that step of the process - and is no failure. The number of spawn are less as well.

Interesting about this pop-timer thing. Might try that out.

CovenantX

Kirthag said:

I don't understand why everyone calls it "a fail"...

the message you get when an ancient guardian spawns says it's a 'fail'.

the problem is it's a guaranteed fail unless you wait long enough for the 'timed' part to be passed.

the earliest you can remove trap is ~8-9 seconds before the full 'timed' part passes because the "fail" is checked at the end of the remove trap process.

popps

CovenantX said:

Kirthag said:

I don't understand why everyone calls it "a fail"...

the message you get when an ancient guardian spawns says it's a 'fail'.

the problem is it's a guaranteed fail unless you wait long enough for the 'timed' part to be passed.

the earliest you can remove trap is ~8-9 seconds before the full 'timed' part passes because the "fail" is checked at the end of the remove trap process.

@CovenantX

Question.

Does one's own Lag which may differ from player to player, affect any of this timer ?

That is, is it necessary for each and every single player to have to identify one's own Remove Trap timer which would not get to spawn Ancient Guardians or is that 1 minute for Supply Maps at 100.0 Remore Trap skill which you mention valid for any and all players ?

CovenantX

popps said:

@ CovenantX

Question.

Does one's own Lag which may differ from player to player, affect any of this timer ?

  Hrmm, it's 2019    What is lag?

 Anyway, I do not believe lag would have any impact on this timer whatsoever.

TimSt

If it was not a failure then why is the chest still trapped and you need to reuse the remove trap skill even if you do not move and have killed the guardian?  If it behaves like a failure, looks like a failure, and you need to treat it as a failure then it is a duck?

MissE

Both my tmappers have 100 rt, 105 carto, and both generate spawn, doesn't seem to matter if I kill all the guardians and wait for a minute before unlocking and using rt on the chest, still get spawn.  Even when I don't move, kill the spawned ancient i generally have to use rt again to open the chest and go through that whole process again, sometimes it  will spawn more ancients, other times it will just open the chest. 

I am having difficulty understanding this so called 'timer' you are talking about CovenantX so perhaps you can explain it a bit better, when does it 'start' and how long to generate no spawn? 

 On the low level chests stash, supply, cache once you spend the 5 seconds to kill the spawn hardly seems worth the effort to care about the ancient spawn on rt as wait a minute anyways, but on hoard and troves it would be nice not to have to deal with it.

CovenantX

MissE said:

 On the low level chests stash, supply, cache once you spend the 5 seconds to kill the spawn hardly seems worth the effort to care about the ancient spawn on rt as wait a minute anyways, but on hoard and troves it would be nice not to have to deal with it.

 

    It would not be worth the wait on lower level maps if you had a choice, but you don't really have the choice, you either wait (and do nothing) or spawn guardians and kill them until enough time has passed, either way you're still waiting for the required amount of time.   lower remove trap skill, means you need to wait much much longer though. 

I haven't timed Stash, Hoard or Trove maps, I ran out of hoard & trove maps before I figured out the timing thing...  but right now I'm just stocking up on lv 3-5s and saving them for when the "Fortified / Of Defense" package isn't spawning on 95% of all the armor pieces.

at 100.0 RT skill, timer starts when the first group of mobs spawn as the chest is dug up.

Supply = 60s

Cache = 120s

Arroth_Thaiel

CovenantX said:

MissE said:

 On the low level chests stash, supply, cache once you spend the 5 seconds to kill the spawn hardly seems worth the effort to care about the ancient spawn on rt as wait a minute anyways, but on hoard and troves it would be nice not to have to deal with it.

 

    It would not be worth the wait on lower level maps if you had a choice, but you don't really have the choice, you either wait (and do nothing) or spawn guardians and kill them until enough time has passed, either way you're still waiting for the required amount of time.   lower remove trap skill, means you need to wait much much longer though. 

I haven't timed Stash, Hoard or Trove maps, I ran out of hoard & trove maps before I figured out the timing thing...  but right now I'm just stocking up on lv 3-5s and saving them for when the "Fortified / Of Defense" package isn't spawning on 95% of all the armor pieces.

at 100.0 RT skill, timer starts when the first group of mobs spawn as the chest is dug up.

Supply = 60s

Cache = 120s

I am having a completely different experience than both of you. 100 RT/LP/Carto on character.

For Stash chests I drop an EV as I'm digging up the map. The EV takes about 7 seconds to kill the Guardians. I use RT on the Chest immediately and then LP as the RT timer is winding down. Open the chest, loot, and leave. Total time from chest appearance and initial guardian spawn to leaving is probably ~25 sec(?)

I think I've done around 50(?) Stash chests so far and have never had an Ancient Guardian.

Supply chests are the same process but I drop two EV's. With no Ogre Lord, the chest is looted and I am gone in probably 30-45 sec after initial chest appearance and guardian spawn. With an Ogre Lord, probably looted and gone in ~60 sec(?)

I've done close to 100 Supply chests (maybe more) and have only gotten maybe 10 ancient chest guardians. I might have gotten two ancient guardians from 1 Supply chest once.

Cache are again the same process, but here is where I started to notice the ancient guardians. I probably get an ancient guardian for 3 of every 5 Cache chests, with maybe 1 of those 3 chests having 2 ancient guardians. 

@CovenantX, I'm not trying to diminish what you are saying, I just have not had that experience at all. It's like we are playing two separate games. I have looted most of my Supply prior to 60s and rarely seen an Ancient Guardian.

However, now that you've pointed this out, I'll pay closer attention and see if I can match the pattern you're seeing in any way.

jelinidas

I have GM Carto and Remove Trap. I "fail" a lot more then I think I should on the 3 lower level chests, but getting used to the new system. I still think the new treasure hunting is a complete nerf though. With all the puzzle box bit*hing, the Devs just said the heck with it. Cut the loot, make it more mismatched, add a ton of gold, gems and paper. Washed their hands of all of it. They made the deadline and have moved on. 

CovenantX

I should say the only way to successfully remove trap on the first attempt with 100% success is to wait for the timer before you attempt to remove the trap on the chest.

you could spawn 1-3 (4?) guardians on a supply map if you don't wait before using RT (so far I haven't been able to spawn more than 3) but if you kill all the ancient guardians fast enough you could start looting the chest around the ~40-45s mark, so you could shorten the timer by killing more guardians.  

However, If you get unlucky and you spawn the stronger mobs (ogre lords for supply maps) it might end up taking more time than it would otherwise if you had just waited.

CovenantX

Arroth_Thaiel said:

I have looted most of my Supply prior to 60s and rarely seen an Ancient Guardian.

   It might "feel" faster than 60s, but it's impossible to start looting the chest within 60s without spawning at least one guardian on supply maps.

Petra_Fyde

Not sure if what I do is relevant, but I don't wait any time limit, I just do things in the same order as we used to.  You couldn't tele the box till after you'd unlocked it, so I don't try to remove trap till after I've unlocked it either. 

I never get a guardian on a stash, I occasionally get one on a supply or cache, but mostly not. I get one or maybe two on a hoard, and when I tried to make a video of how I dealt with those guardians I had to use a hoard map because I wasn't getting any on trove maps.

Arroth_Thaiel

CovenantX said:

I should say the only way to successfully remove trap on the first attempt with 100% success is to wait for the timer before you attempt to remove the trap on the chest.

you could spawn 1-3 (4?) guardians on a supply map if you don't wait before using RT (so far I haven't been able to spawn more than 3) but if you kill all the ancient guardians fast enough you could start looting the chest around the ~40-45s mark, so you could shorten the timer by killing more guardians.  

However, If you get unlucky and you spawn the stronger mobs (ogre lords for supply maps) it might end up taking more time than it would otherwise if you had just waited.

***

It might "feel" faster than 60s, but it's impossible to start looting the chest within 60s without spawning at least one guardian on supply maps.

Ah ok. I see what you're saying. That would actually explain something...

I kept track of the first 52 Supply maps I did in a spreadsheet, but that was the first 2 days of the Pub 105 release and I was only tracking loot, not guardians. However, I remember thinking "wow they completely turned down the ancient guardian thing". I don't think I saw a single Ancient Guardian during those first 52 supplies. Perhaps between tracking and just running around I was taking longer than I realized and so not spawning Ancient Guardians.

A few days later I did more Supply and I remember thinking "well, they turned the Ancient Guardians up". However, I was no longer spreadsheet tracking, and AG's were still pretty rare. I'll bet I was moving faster and therefore spawning AG's, but running into enough Ogre Lords to slow me down and eliminate AG spawn for most chests. Without tracking, I conflated the two sets of maps and didn't even notice the mechanic.

Nice Catch.

***

So, just did a couple more Supply. With 2 EV's preplaced I can kill off the Guardians, initiate RT, and then LP the chest all by about the 20 sec mark. However, as you state, at this speed I get an AG every time (at least so far). RT fails and the AG pops at about 30 sec. Restart RT immediately, AG dead at about 35 sec, 2nd RT success at about 40 sec. Start looting. I can have the chest looted and demolished by the late 40, early 50, second mark fairly easily. As long as: 1-no Ogre Lords, 2-only 1 RT failure.

I tend to loot guardian corpses during the RT cooldown, so really the whole map is taking about 50 or so seconds, if it's a "good" map. With Ogre Lords or multiple RT failures it's obviously longer.

Not sure if it's really necessary to move that fast though. Might be better just to take your time, kill off the guardians, loot their corpses, then do LP, and finally do RT. At that point you're probably past the 60s mark and won't even have to deal with an RT failure/explosion/AG.

Again, nice catch on that mechanic. 

TimSt

Cache maps appear to have a 3 minute remove trap timer with 100 RT.  At 2:30 I had gotten 2 RT guardians.  And at 3 minutes I have not gotten an RT guardian yet.

Basara

To me, timing doesn't appear to be an issue. LUCK does, however. 

at 880 luck, on cache and hoard, I rarely get an ancient spawn.

If I use the luck statue (+900 at my account's age), or am doing a Fel map (with the supposed luck bonus for the loot), I get at least one.

If I use the luck statue WITH a fel map, I'm pretty much guaranteed 2-4 ancient spawn. And, this is even on a Fel Hoard map that took so long to kill the initial spawn (2 AWs, 2 balrons, 3 eles) that the first regular guardian spawn killed already had its corpse decay away.

McDougle

i find that since i started waiting after i killed last guardian i don't fail and no more guardians appear i just clear initial spawn then invis and wait until i am visible again

Arroth_Thaiel

@CovenantX the timer for Hoard appears to be 420 seconds (7 min). At 400 seconds I still get an AG, but at 420 haven't gotten one yet. This consistent with what you're seeing?

popps

Arroth_Thaiel said:

@ CovenantX the timer for Hoard appears to be 420 seconds (7 min). At 400 seconds I still get an AG, but at 420 haven't gotten one yet. This consistent with what you're seeing?

WOW, 7 minutes ?

In order not to get Ancient Guardians to spawn one has to wait 7 full minutes before engaging the Remove Trap skill ?

WOW, I wonder what the timer is, for Trove Chests, then.....

Arroth_Thaiel

popps said:

WOW, 7 minutes ?

In order not to get Ancient Guardians to spawn one has to wait 7 full minutes before engaging the Remove Trap skill ?

WOW, I wonder what the timer is, for Trove Chests, then.....

That's with 100 RT. My understanding is less RT = increased time.

I had been bringing a second account to get through the guardians faster. However if I just solo, I finish the guardians right about the 5 or 6 min mark (most of the time). Gives plenty of time to loot corpses before making that first RT attempt.

CovenantX

Arroth_Thaiel said:

@ CovenantX the timer for Hoard appears to be 420 seconds (7 min). At 400 seconds I still get an AG, but at 420 haven't gotten one yet. This consistent with what you're seeing?

  yep that's consistent.

jelinidas

This whole timer seems a bit cheesy. Might as well just drop RT and get a extra 100 points. Dig chest, kill guardians, Hide and go grab a smoke. Come back and loot. And yes, I understand the timer will increase with no remove trap.  Another thing I'm not real sure I agree with in this ner….new improved Treasure Hunting experience.

Arroth_Thaiel

Dug a Hoard and killed the Guardians in less then 2 min. Didn't want to hang out for 5 min, so looted Guardian corpses, LP'd the chest, killed the grubber, marked a rune for the chest, recalled home, dropped off loot.

Grabbed a 2nd Hoard out of my Davies, found it and dug it up. As I was finishing off the guardians on chest 2, the timer for chest 1 hit 7 min. Finished killing off chest 2 guardians, recalled over to chest 1, RT and looted it, then home again to drop off, then back to chest 2 which had just passed 7 min.

We can call this "Power Hunting" right? *nudge nudge, wink wink* C'mon, you know you want to.