UNNERF SDI Mages...

Cazador

bring pure back to 30%sdi. Do you guys even play UO other than in Trammel?

Oreogl

Please remind me, what is sdi cap now?  20%?

Cookie

I'll back this up.

Need to do something for the pure mages.

I've lost interest in PvP now, just craft or solo pvm these days in Fel, for no reason.

Mariah

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/items/magic-item-properties/

25% for pure mages

The_Higgs_1

There is no need for 30 SDI mages.  Magery is still the best in PvP and always will be.  It could be put back to 15 SDI and still be the king template to play.   The HP cap hasn't gone up so why does the damage cap need to be higher.  If anything they need to nerf wrestling/parry combo and anatomy/parry combo.  Make people learn to play a mage again instead of easy button high SDI + max defense mages.   Can you imagine how ridiculous weapon skill mages would be at 40 SDI, cmon now.

Cookie

The_Higgs_1 said:

There is no need for 30 SDI mages.  Magery is still the best in PvP and always will be.  It could be put back to 15 SDI and still be the king template to play.   The HP cap hasn't gone up so why does the damage cap need to be higher.  If anything they need to nerf wrestling/parry combo and anatomy/parry combo.  Make people learn to play a mage again instead of easy button high SDI + max defense mages.   Can you imagine how ridiculous weapon skill mages would be at 40 SDI, cmon now.

As a mage without parry, I cannot relate to your comment in the current climate. I am pretty sure the Devs stated Parry would be less required for mages after their patch, hence the justification for all the nerfs - {I call adding weapons to mages a nerf also}, instead parry is more needed than ever, even in it's weakened form. (adding parry to the list of non pure mage skills was a nerf to parry).

They are fine to nerf wrestle/parry combo in my opinion, if they give a boost somehow to those who only use a book - or boost wrestle on it's own (I do currently use a shield for stats, but would like to even drop that image-wise, yes image maters in pvp). Make the book usable in the left hand instead of shields so it cannot be disarmed.

I also cannot imagine how ridiculous weapon mages would be with 40% sdi, as again, they shouldn't be using weapons, another thing the recent patch brought in, the whole hybrid weapon mage/dexxer mage concept. Fine to make weapon mages not have 40% sdi.

I ultimately disagree with "Magery is still the best in PvP and always will be." I don't see any mages in pvp anymore. I see hybrids, parry mages, parry mystics but no pures. I agree magery has flexibility, and 64 spells, but none of that matters when being shredded and dismounted by dexxers and there is nothing you can do.

Proof is in the pudding, and my pvp time has gone down from 7 days a week almost, to a couple of skirmishes a week, when our entire team is on, and I'm not going to be the main target.

The_Higgs_1

All the templates you listed contain magery because magery is king of pvp.  Just cause you have bias towards pure mages doesn't mean everyone has to play your template.  What makes UO great is diversity in templates.  Why cast a longer spell to finish a player off when you run up and AI them with a weapon?  Its the same reason why melee will always have a ranged skill as well.  Ranged damage will always trump up close damage.   Also parry still blocks at the same percentage it did before lowering the SDI therefore parry was untouched by that fix.  There is no reason for a mage to be able to cast with ease against a dexxer cause they block 67% of the swings.  Timing is needed for good mageplay against dexxers not uninterruptable casting.   Magery when cast is guaranteed damage unlike any dexxer skill, nothing compares to magery in UO.  Archers can still miss even if the mage doesn't have parry,  If the mage casts a spell it deals damage always cept for evasion. 

Cookie

Truthfully, I cannot be bothered with this debate anymore, I've done it for too long.

Mages are gone for me, and I am pretty much.

I'll sit here doing my bods, and watch you go on about great diversity in PvP and how great mages are. Whilst 80% of templates carry a weapon.

(And parry is mandatory as a result).

Cetric

The 20sdi vs 25 sdi is a really nice balance imo. More for pure and less for others was a wide gap.  Now a days you see a lot of variety in casting.  Yes many are tank mages, but I don't see much problem with that with the trade offs

Lieutenant_Dan

Cookie said:

Truthfully, I cannot be bothered with this debate anymore, I've done it for too long.

Mages are gone for me, and I am pretty much.

I'll sit here doing my bods, and watch you go on about great diversity in PvP and how great mages are. Whilst 80% of templates carry a weapon.

(And parry is mandatory as a result).

I'm right there with you on this one Cookie.
If i was to take the time to write all of the nerfs mages have taken over the years jaws would hit the floor.  It's unreal that people still even play them.
It's a dexxer world now thats for sure.  check out the video in this post for example.  https://forum.uo.com/discussion/596/pvp-nowdays#latest

CovenantX

Lieutenant_Dan said:

I'm right there with you on this one Cookie.
If i was to take the time to write all of the nerfs mages have taken over the years jaws would hit the floor.  It's unreal that people still even play them.
It's a dexxer world now thats for sure.  check out the video in this post for example.  https://forum.uo.com/discussion/596/pvp-nowdays#latest

 It's funny that you say that, because the video you reference is only usable against Dexers.
 I suppose you've been out of the pvp-loop for quite sometime?

Cookie

Covenant,

You are correct ofc in that RPD is mainly usable against Dexxers.

But what it shows, is just how effective it is, because there are so many Dexxers, that this is becoming fashionable right now.

It sort of also shows how stupid PvP can get.

My Dexxer has 120 RPD, he is an anti Dexxer Dexxer ?! RPD and Disarm, also useful against weapon mages, which makes up most everything else these days.

I was watching the next video.

These guys are considered poor by me on our server, they rely on dismount dexxer ganks, and have pretty much no skill except running away. These guys actually sum up the problem, although they fight well here 2v3, although as I always say, Atlantic is poor for PvP. EU1 is mainly made up of our failed PvPers. On Europa, we beat these guys in the 8v8 tourney last week, and last night, took their Harry off them 12v12 (their full strength team - it wasn't ours.   )

I have been considering joining HOT on Atlantic, so I can fight them there also.

CovenantX

Cookie said:

Covenant,

You are correct ofc in that RPD is mainly usable against Dexxers.

But what it shows, is just how effective it is, because there are so many Dexxers, that this is becoming fashionable right now.

It sort of also shows how stupid PvP can get.

My Dexxer has 120 RPD, he is an anti Dexxer Dexxer ?! RPD and Disarm, also useful against weapon mages, which makes up most everything else these days.

Spells that deal physical and even chaos damage (which is 1/5 100% physical) aren't affected by RPD whatsoever and never have been, It's anti-dexer.   

RPD is effective because of how many dexers there are?  Nay, It's effective because you only attack people that are vulnerable to it.  exactly as the video shows.

the 2nd part of your post is kind of interesting.

"They're poor because they rely on dismount dexer ganks"... Do you have Parry by chance?

I don't have a finished character on Europa yet, so I'll withhold some judgment until then.

Most everyone seems skilled in running away btw, most of them are dexers, because if they aren't, they lose 90% of the time.

The_Higgs_1

Simple question I have for Cookies post.  How is it you won the 8v8 and the 12v12 on mages if magery isn't the best in the game???!!!!  *Drops Mic*

Cookie

Higgs,

Because I play with a great team who carry me everywhere

I have mentioned before, in an enclosed space, with enough numbers to protect you, and if you can field the entire place up, you can get away with it.

But as a mage, if you use parry, which most are forced to, the dexxers complain, and if you field the entire place up, like I do, then dexxers complain - yet we really are forced to play like that right now - not fun or exciting, yet we have to.

And much of it is to counter the dismount ganks and the sheer volume of specials heading our way.

Covenant - Most mages use weapons these days, I was counting them.

I don't use parry, almost the only one who doesn't, but it's the same story for everyone. (I used to use parry, but got bored of it, mages shouldn't have to use parry).

Yes they are all very skilled at running away, it's all they do, they don't do it to survive, they do it because they are useless pvpers and scared to pvp - they do just the same on mages. Then they come back with 5 and dismount gank, it's very boring pvp.

CovenantX

 

Cookie said:

Covenant - Most mages use weapons these days, I was counting them.

I don't use parry, almost the only one who doesn't, but it's the same story for everyone. (I used to use parry, but got bored of it, mages shouldn't have to use parry).

Yes they are all very skilled at running away, it's all they do, they don't do it to survive, they do it because they are useless pvpers and scared to pvp - they do just the same on mages. Then they come back with 5 and dismount gank, it's very boring pvp.

  I'm aware most mages use weapons now.   those people realize it's a waste of time trying to play a dexer, when you could just play a mage with a weapon.

  You know what I don't see?   Parry-mages with weapons. why?  Potions.


 So you don't use parry, yet you claim you're forced to run with parry... One of those is a lie.
I don't have parry on any pvp or pvm characters anymore.

People run because they don't want to die.   I have yet to read anything you have to say that involves any one vs one fighting... it's always group vs group.   no wonder you defend parry so much.  a mage can't handle a group of Archers without parry, or I should say, they'd be less likely able to.

Anyway... the current SDI balance between focus spec & non-focus is fairly balanced.
Now there needs to be some kind of focus spec for dexers....  A Pure non-parry-mage is viable in pvp... a pure dexer (melee) hasn't been viable since publish 46 and has even gotten worse with powercreep.

Cookie

I agree pure dexxers need a buff in all areas, you'll notice I've always said this also. But there are very few warriors fighting for this, most have succumbed and gone Sampire or Hybrid. It's only the Pure Mages fighting for their place still, because not all of them want to give in to having a mixed up template.

1v1 Magewise, I struggle to kill any top player, and most struggle to kill me, it becomes a pointless stalemate. The best players (about 5 ingame) do beat me with sheer speed for sure, but most, I can sit there all day and it's stalemate, that's why I don't 1v1. I don't do 1v1, because no-one can beat me, I can't beat anyone, and none of us achieve anything from it. I like to PvP for group objectives and fun, I Factioned, I do VvV, I do Champ spawns, I do Harries, I like to win team objectives and have a point to the PvP.

Now Mage v Dexxer, 1v1, after 20 minutes, it is inevitable the dexxer has to win, the dexxer can keep on auto hitting, while a mage has to run out of mana, its just the laws of physics. Dexxer auto hits, Mage has no mana to heal, mage eventually gets worn down and dies. If the mage puts together any half decent combo, dexxer runs off screen, heals up comes back.

So you are right, I don't 1v1, there are only 2 possible outcomes - I either draw with a mage-type or the dexxer wins in about 20-30 minutes assuming all is equal in skill level. I don't mind that dexxers win here, it's not what I do, I don't see any point in this.

So now we go onto team fights, which is what I do all the time. I like team fights, because the variables are more, strategy, positioning, environment, cross healing, all have so much more impact. Now onto the downside, that is ruining all this fluid movement - Dismount is completely overpowered, because it puts a player down to half speed, and makes him a sitting duck for a gank. Being ganked to death in this fashion is just lame, there is no honour or skill in doing it, and the feeling of being dismount ganked is just completely sucky because the whole point of the team fight has just been ruined by an easy I WIN button. The speed with which players can kill these days is unbelievable with all the specials if a player is crippled like this. Dismount ganks, ruin the entire style, fluidity and point of Team PvP.

PS, As a personal thing, as a mage, I don't want to use a weapon or a shield, I'd rather use a book only, I'm a mage, and off-hand orb would be nice. It's not about using whatever you have to win, that's the problem with the game currently, that's why everyone has become this thing called a Sampire, or hybred dexxer, or weapon mage, they are all terrible gimp templates. If people want to play them fine, but at least give the pure guys a chance.

Drowy

I dont see dismount being overpowered. Its needed cause otherwise some people are almost impossible to kill. It would just be more running off screen and healing up.
In group fights its up to the group to keep your dismounted teammate alive and back mounted. One of the enemy is on foot also. I dont see a problem there.
For balancing issues, I would nerf the deathstrikers a bit. With Splintering, Deathstrike, Infectious Strike, Riding Swipe, Frenzied Whirlwind, etc. they are a bit op in my eyes.