Reworking The Wrestling Mastery?

So this is something that has been on my mind since it was implemented. Mind you these are my opinions on the topic and I am aware some may disagree with me.

The wrestling mastery is really pathetic in terms of the types of characters who would even have the skill to begin with. Wrestling is a defensive ability that casters take so they aren't beaten into a pulp immediately, However its hardly ever the case that the skill alone helps there. I'll make my case with the three mastery abilities one by one.

Rampage- The wrestler attempts to continually hit their opponent where with each successful hit the wrestler receives a bonus to hit point regeneration, stamina regeneration, casting focus, and swing speed increase based on wrestling skill, evaluating intelligence or anatomy skill and mastery level. The effect is lost if the wrestler misses, the wrestler’s opponent parries the attack, or fails to cast a spell.

Ok so.... the issue here is, Very few mages are going to put themselves in a position where they are punching their target repeatedly. In a solo environment that would mean moving in and getting hit by whatever it is that is attacking you. The benefits sound great, But missing a punch on builds that normally have no Hit Chance Increase is highly probable and honestly once that close up the only thing you are likely using the casting focus for is a healing spell. In my experience this has never come in handy.

Knockout!- While the wrestling mastery is active the wrestler receives a damage bonus to each hit based on mastery level

Ok lets just be real here.... It's turning a 3 damage punch into possibly a 6-7 damage punch. I think there are better ideas to fill this mastery slot that are useful for the templates that use the skill.

Fists of Fury-  The wrestler attempts to land three hits in rapid succession to the next target that damages you within a 2 tile radius. If successful the third hit will deal direct damage based on the wrestler’s mastery level. The duration of this ability is based on wrestling skill and anatomy skill or evaluating intelligence skill.

I cannot say I have ever even seen this mastery ability work as it claims. I Imagine Hit Chance comes into play for the "Three hits". Either I have never had the third hit land, or it just isn't that powerful a hit to be noticed. But it has promise as a defensive ability, giving a slight risk to be trying to melee a wrestling user.


My point here is not even based off of PvP, I have never tried using this mastery for that as honestly it has seemed ineffective in even PvM. I would love to see this mastery changed and made as more of a way for mages to have some benefit of using it. I am not saying that it should create some form of "tank" mage, But it would be rather fun if mages could have some benefit for choosing this mastery that they can actually make use of. Wrestling for a mage is completely defensive in nature and it's mastery abilities should reflect that.

That's How I feel at least, I am interested in seeing others opinions on this. I don't really want to see another version of a parry mage coming into existence. But at the same time I'd love to see this mastery actually being useful.

Comments

  • SethSeth Posts: 193
    edited December 2018
    Yeah, the mage with wrestling skill is pathetic. Someone is trying the nerf the parry version of the pure mage now.

    So very soon, unless you have 840 skills mage dexxer bushido or ninja whatever, you can't fight.

    They are nerfing the last remaining, useful pure mage pvp template which is not even OP. So I dont think anyone would support this wrestling mastery issue. Nothing useful left for the pure mage in pvp. Zero.

    I can't Express how... speechless I am. My pvp friends are probably laughing their heads off. They very best pvp player are not afraid of Parry mages.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 379
    edited December 2018

    @Ezekial, you're completely correct, wrestling mastery is up there with the most pointless mastery skills ingame. Some are pretty useful, wrestling is pointless. (I actually like the mastery system in itself).

    At best, I always thought, at least it may have some usefulness to a roleplayer.

    It's like they had absolutely no idea what to do with this one.

    A huge shame, as you say, pure mages are suffering enough already - and @Seth, I love the fact you are pursuing this and agree with you of course.


    For me, Wrestling specials were quite useful - Stun, and Disarm. These just don't seem to work anymore, cannot remember why (or since when, it's been so long), but for me, it would help a huge amount, if wrestling masteries just enhanced these 2 specials to actually work. They work so infrequently, I don't even bother to use them anymore, but they were a key part of a mages defence.

    Good point for bringing this up, just another of those massive nerfs to mages we all forget about, and sweep under the carpet.


  • psychopsycho Posts: 64
    It is my conclusion long ago that the design of primers was done wrong. (maybe hasty?)
    I made a post about primers some months ago, cba dig for it now.

    Theres several issues with the primers, vol 1, 2 have no value, even most of vol3 on most shards, they have no cleanup points, can not be bound, can not be xfered, cant be sold to NPCs, and the fact that many of them as you mentioned, is useless.

    The idea of primers were intentionally good, but should be improved with the knowledge we have today. As for the wrestling primer, its kinda slow hitting without stam/dex items which isnt the first priority for a wrestling mage. Also fighting vs a melee char you kinda try avoid getting meelee as he will do alot more damange than you, thus youll never have 2-3 punches in a row.
    Back to drawing board.


  • SethSeth Posts: 193
    @Cookie thanks again, we need to protect pure templates that are accessible by most, normal players. How are we to attract new players to start pvp when even the most basic templates are ineffective. 

    @psycho Not sure if they actually tested for the effectiveness of the wrestling mastery before releasing. It seems to be created to fill the void - need a mastery for wrestling, just make it happen, regardless if it is useful for pvm or pvp, there needs to be wrestling mastery.

    In eastern Kungfu, unarmed combat can be as lethal than armed combat. The wrong moves could prove deadly for an armed adversary.

    There was a game long ago, can't remember the name. Monks in the game can fight unarmed and they have a special move that hits the acupoints of the opponents which my critically hurt them. 

    Or take real life boxing or karate or Tae Kwon Do, a critical strike means real KO. 
  • Sounds like the wrestling mastery was designed for some weird WWE role playing event, wrestling mastery only tournaments where you stand face to face and  chain specials until someone wins.
    You and Several Others like this.
    pirate

    Please make the Grizzled Mare a 5 slot mount, it's incredibly rare and deserves it.
  • SethSeth Posts: 193
    Sounds like the wrestling mastery was designed for some weird WWE role playing event, wrestling mastery only tournaments where you stand face to face and  chain specials until someone wins.
    Haha! Get a pop corn and wait for the winner.
  • I would love to see this get more comments and views. I would hope once the development team is made aware of this that they'd be more willing for a change. Especially if Parry is going to be changed (which I agree with as a mage carrying a shield is just silly, they shouldn't need it).

    @Bleak I'd love for you to take a look at this since you are already running a post about Parry. Mages don't need to be overpowered, But they definitely need a semblance of balancing in regards to Melee and Archer templates. Making the wrestling mastery more useful for them is a step in a more sensible direction, I think at least.
  • EzekialEzekial Posts: 6
    So I figured I'd bump this post back up with the parry changes getting ready to come into effect next publish, Hope The Development Team takes notice.
  • SethSeth Posts: 193
    Wrestling mastery should have a real KO punch... if anyone is not sure what is a KO, just walk into the Ring and ask Mike Tyson to show you... 

     :D 
  • IkeeluIkeelu Posts: 134
    Ko punch could just be splinter, bleed and forced walk...
    esdxWhere is the bank? 
  • SethSeth Posts: 193
    Ikeelu said:
    Ko punch could just be splinter, bleed and forced walk...
    Good idea too, splintering force walking punch... or actually, death strike from Ninjitsu belongs to the Ancient Chinese martial art of unarmed combat. It hits the opponent accupoints using bare hands to cause that death strike effect. It should not be under Ninjitsu but unarmed combat or wrestling.
  • fonsvitaefonsvitae Posts: 23
    Ikeelu said:
    Ko punch could just be splinter, bleed and forced walk...
    I like this idea; wrestling should have a comparable and useful move.

  • poppspopps Posts: 702
    I frankly am missing the point of the OP.

    If it is intended at giving better Wrestling Mastery Bonuses for Spellcasters well, don't Spellcasters usually use their "Magic" related Mastery to start with ?

    That is, Mages use the magery Mastery, Mystics use the Mysticism Mastery, Wavers use the Spellweaving mastery etc. etc.

    I have yet to see a Spellcaster to use a Wrestling Mastery in place of their Magic Mastery and, I would imagine, even if the bonuses to the Wrestling Mastery were changed to favour somewhat spellcasters, I think that Spellcasters would still prefer the mastery related to the Magic spells which they are going to use....

    Or am I wrong in my thinking ?
  • Max_BlackoakMax_Blackoak Posts: 321
    the short answer is: you're wrong in your thinking.

    the longer answer: you don't see mages using wrestling mastery because as you can read above it sucks and there's no useful application for it in the game. 
    Now with your above assessment of mages using magery master, mystics using mysticism mastery and spellweavers using spellweaving mastery you seem to miss that most mage templates use a mix of different casting schools (mystic mage, spellweaving mage etc.).
    The only templates that use wrestling are caster templates because warriors are way better off using actual weapons for special moves variety, additional mods on the weapon etc. etc.
    So if anything then the wrestling mastery really should be tailored towards being used by caster templates because they're the only ones using them.

  • poppspopps Posts: 702
    edited May 23
    the short answer is: you're wrong in your thinking.

    the longer answer: you don't see mages using wrestling mastery because as you can read above it sucks and there's no useful application for it in the game. 
    Now with your above assessment of mages using magery master, mystics using mysticism mastery and spellweavers using spellweaving mastery you seem to miss that most mage templates use a mix of different casting schools (mystic mage, spellweaving mage etc.).
    The only templates that use wrestling are caster templates because warriors are way better off using actual weapons for special moves variety, additional mods on the weapon etc. etc.
    So if anything then the wrestling mastery really should be tailored towards being used by caster templates because they're the only ones using them.

    But please, correct me if I am wrong....

    Don't Masteries use "Real" skill values for the effectiveness of their bonuses?

    And when it comes to Spellcasters, which usually do Spellcasters have as higher, their school of magic of choice or their Wrestling which usually is limited at whatever is "enough" not to be interrutped too much in their casting?

    Not to mention, that many spellcasters just use the Protection spell (which, also for those not having magery can be cast off a scroll...) and have their suit with extra Resistance to compensate the debuff....

    So, I am wondering, is wrestling "that" big of a deal for a Spellcaster when it comes to chosing a School of Magic Mastery over a Wrestling Mastery ?
  • LynkLynk Posts: 85
    edited May 23
    Popps: youre wrong.  I'm not going to invest energy in telling you why, just know that you are.

    To OP:

    Most masteries them are set up as 1 offensive and 1 defensive ability.  current ones on wrestle are useless.  I have some ideas, obviously not all of these.

    Long Reach - when activated your melee range with wrestle is increased to 2 tiles.  Mana to activate and stays active allowing specials to be toggled.

    Hamstring - forced walk for 3 seconds no bleed.  Make it toggleable with animation with short window to hit like shield bash.  Duration where it stays ready to proc tied to mastery level.  Consume mana when toggled regardless of hit or not.

    Passive bola accuracy:  give guaranteed bola hit chance at level 3.

    Physical Awareness - toggled ability with 5 minute cool down at level 3.  When toggled the next hit that would normally land will be dodged 

    Dazing blow - toggleable.  Successful hit Will confuse opponent causing them to lose aggro and unable to re-aggro target for duration based on mastery level and skill (max 6 seconds).  Cooldown based on mastery/skill minimum 5 minutes.
  • Max_BlackoakMax_Blackoak Posts: 321
    popps said:
    But please, correct me if I am wrong....

    Don't Masteries use "Real" skill values for the effectiveness of their bonuses?
    yes, so what? That means if you want to get the most out of your mastery you need to use real skill. That applies to every other mastery as well.

    popps said:
    And when it comes to Spellcasters, which usually do Spellcasters have as higher, their school of magic of choice or their Wrestling which usually is limited at whatever is "enough" not to be interrutped too much in their casting?

    Not to mention, that many spellcasters just use the Protection spell (which, also for those not having magery can be cast off a scroll...) and have their suit with extra Resistance to compensate the debuff....
    If you're running wrestling you should be running it at 120 to get the maximum benefit out of it. For PvM you can maybe get away with less but in PvP you need to maximize your defense. Wrestling is not only there to avoid being interupted, it is there to completely avoid getting hit and taking damage from warrior types.
    Protection is in no way a replacement for wrestling. Protection will only prevent being interupted but you will still take damage (and get hit every time without wrestling or an equivalent form of defense against warriors).

    popps said:
    So, I am wondering, is wrestling "that" big of a deal for a Spellcaster when it comes to chosing a School of Magic Mastery over a Wrestling Mastery ?
    With the way the wrestling masteries are currently it is not a viable option and that's exactly what this thread is about: making the wrestling mastery a viable option. As soon as that is accomplished you will see people using it.





Sign In or Register to comment.