Kyronix, does it really have to be a "click fest" ?

popps

I am referring, to needed spells, for example Consecrate Weapon and Divine Fury (but other spells could also be named...) that last way, but really way too short a time resulting in the player having to click them a go-go...

Aside from that being extremely annoying, at least to me, I guess that, in the long run, it might also eventually become stressing to the hardware of a mouse whereas a player needs to click over and over and over again a button to get that particular spell keep going...

Yes, game balancing has its saying about that... yet, why not make the spell last, for example, 3 or 4 times, hell, 5 times as long but take 3, 4 or 5 times the mana ?

Balancing would be preserved (the mana gets used up) yet, the "click fest" would be cut enormously, reducing the number of necessary clicks by many folds...

I hope that you will consider such a change, I imagine that players, and their mice, will appreciate it.

Garret

It could be mastery 3 buff thing. If you wish to not cast chivalry spells every 5 sec then use relevant mastery and that will buff duration to 1-2-3-4 mins. Same effect for necromancy curse weapon. Same effect for spellweaving immolate weapon.

mis

popps said:

I am referring, to needed spells, for example Consecrate Weapon and Divine Fury (but other spells could also be named...) that last way, but really way too short a time resulting in the player having to click them a go-go...

In the macros section, you can create a macro that, when you press a key, casts those spells and any others you need.

Venom

To a certain point, yes if has to be a clickfest. Otherwise, just go run a tamer and say "all kill."

Consecrate weapon, I believe, can last up to 11 seconds. It also enables paladins to automatically switch their weapon's damage to the mobs lowest resist -- that's a powerful thing. 

Uo for non-mages used to just be a game of engage and run around without clicking (as far as offense). Then they added random special moves procs and finally they made it so players had to manage their mana and pick when to use a special. It's about balance, in my view. Just making things, effectively, less involved for players in the context your asking seems a step back. 

popps

Venom said:

To a certain point, yes if has to be a clickfest. Otherwise, just go run a tamer and say "all kill."

Consecrate weapon, I believe, can last up to 11 seconds. It also enables paladins to automatically switch their weapon's damage to the mobs lowest resist -- that's a powerful thing. 

Uo for non-mages used to just be a game of engage and run around without clicking (as far as offense). Then they added random special moves procs and finally they made it so players had to manage their mana and pick when to use a special. It's about balance, in my view. Just making things, effectively, less involved for players in the context your asking seems a step back. 

That is correct, "up" to 11 seconds but it can also be 3 seconds... it depens on Karma... for the record, my warrior's Karma is 31,964 so, almost the maxed out 32k ...

Spells cost mana, that is their balancing weight, to my understanding... therefore, I do not see why the duration time for he spell could not be increased, significantly, and increase their mana cost accordingly.

Spell lasting longer, less clicks needed, mora mana necessary... why not ?

popps

mis said:

popps said:

I am referring, to needed spells, for example Consecrate Weapon and Divine Fury (but other spells could also be named...) that last way, but really way too short a time resulting in the player having to click them a go-go...

In the macros section, you can create a macro that, when you press a key, casts those spells and any others you need.

Yes, still, a macro needs to be associated to a mouse button or, to a keyboard key or keys' combination... still to be pressed every too few seconds as it is now, to my opinion...

I'd rather prefer to have to spend more mana but see the spells last significantly longer before having to recast them...

Petra_Fyde

"clicks" are not needed if you set a macro hot key as Mis has pictured.
I don't want it to cost more mana, as then I'd have no mana to cast other spells. 

popps

Petra_Fyde said:

"clicks" are not needed if you set a macro hot key as Mis has pictured.
I don't want it to cost more mana, as then I'd have no mana to cast other spells. 

Some spells are "almost" a must... for example, for a Warrior, Consecrate Weapon and Divine Fury need to be up and working, especially if one needs leeches that depend on damage...

That said, for example, Consecrate Weapon takes 10 mana and can last 3 to 11 seconds, depending on Karma.

Now, if a Warrior needs to cast Consecrate Weapon over and over, that it cost less mana is irrelevant, because every new cast will consume that 10 mana...

What I am trying to say is, what difference would there be in "saving up mana" whether Consecrate Weapon cost 10 mana for a 3 to 11 seconds duration or, say, 20 mana for a 6 to 22 seconds duration if one still has to cast it over and over ?

My point being, that in the end, if I need my Warrior to always have Consecrate Weapon up and running, I need to cast it over and over and thus consume the required mana anyways...

Yet, with a longer duration one would need to cast it less often, albeit with a greater mana consumption for each cast... for balancing purposes...

Pawain

@popps ; why don't you use the correct weapon and have a suit with the proper stats?

None of my toons with chivalry use consecrate often.  Never use Divine Fury.  EoO and Remove Curse are the ones you should be using often.

Why did you pick things you need because your suit and equipment are lacking?  You don't have elemental weapons?  You don't have enough stamina to swing at max speed?

Paladin in Diablo 3 was like playing a piano.

Grimbeard

Pawain said:

@ popps  why don't you use the correct weapon and have a suit with the proper stats?

None of my toons with chivalry use consecrate often.  Never use Divine Fury.  EoO and Remove Curse are the ones you should be using often.

Why did you pick things you need because your suit and equipment are lacking?  You don't have elemental weapons?  You don't have enough stamina to swing at max speed?

Paladin in Diablo 3 was like playing a piano.

While popps is of course talking nonsense Pawain is as well paladins use both CW and DF constantly 

mis

@popps

The following example only applies to Enhanced Client.

If you want to play automatically, you can create a macro that repeats up to 10 times with different actions. Here is an example:

I have provided a symbolic example of executing Lightning Strike with 2-second pauses and finally executing Consecrate Weapon for the F1 key.

The variation in seconds will depend on factors such as your Dexterity, SSI, weapon speed, karma, etc., as well as factors such as FC and FCR.

In this example, I only included that, but you can add Divine Fury, special moves, etc.

If you want it to be prolonged and don't want to press a single key for many minutes, what you have to do is continue doing different rounds of what I put in the example, which will then be multiplied by 10 repetitions.

If, for example, your karma level reaches 11 seconds, you must divide 11 by the number of seconds it takes you to strike. For example, if it takes you 1.5 seconds per strike, it would be 11/1.5, that is, removing the peak, about 7 actions and then executing Consecrate Weapon.

Here is an example of how to calculate attack speed with swordsmanship:

https://uo.stratics.com/content/skills/swordsmanship.php

Fill in all the information to find out the Swing Delay of the weapon you will be using, and that is what you need to use for your calculations.

I hope this helps.

popps

Pawain said:

@ popps  why don't you use the correct weapon and have a suit with the proper stats?

None of my toons with chivalry use consecrate often.  Never use Divine Fury.  EoO and Remove Curse are the ones you should be using often.

Why did you pick things you need because your suit and equipment are lacking?  You don't have elemental weapons?  You don't have enough stamina to swing at max speed?

Paladin in Diablo 3 was like playing a piano.

Well, sometimes, rather then to have multiple weapons for multiple targets with different weakest resists, it might be "handier" to just use 1 good weapon and use Consecrate Weapon... but then, as it now works and lasts (too shortly), it becomes a click fest, at least to my liking, unfortunately...

Personally, when things become too tedious for me, it takes the fun out of it, at least for me...

popps

mis said:

@ popps

The following example only applies to Enhanced Client.

If you want to play automatically, you can create a macro that repeats up to 10 times with different actions. Here is an example:

I have provided a symbolic example of executing Lightning Strike with 2-second pauses and finally executing Consecrate Weapon for the F1 key.

The variation in seconds will depend on factors such as your Dexterity, SSI, weapon speed, karma, etc., as well as factors such as FC and FCR.

In this example, I only included that, but you can add Divine Fury, special moves, etc.

If you want it to be prolonged and don't want to press a single key for many minutes, what you have to do is continue doing different rounds of what I put in the example, which will then be multiplied by 10 repetitions.

If, for example, your karma level reaches 11 seconds, you must divide 11 by the number of seconds it takes you to strike. For example, if it takes you 1.5 seconds per strike, it would be 11/1.5, that is, removing the peak, about 7 actions and then executing Consecrate Weapon.

Here is an example of how to calculate attack speed with swordsmanship:

https://uo.stratics.com/content/skills/swordsmanship.php

Fill in all the information to find out the Swing Delay of the weapon you will be using, and that is what you need to use for your calculations.

I hope this helps.

I have been wishing for years now, that the Enhanced Client made it possible to use the Classic Client graphics... I have tried many times to get used to the Enhanced Client but I just cannot stand the graphics of it... maybe it is just that I am used to the Classic Client graphics, I do not know... but I tried to use the Enhanced Client several times and for days, trying to force myself to get used to its looks... but eventually, I always went back to the Classic Client...

I realy wished I could get the Enhanced Client functionalities but with the Classic Client look...

But thanks for the kind help and suggestions.

vortex

Ask Elon to put a chip in your head so you don't have to click... How many clicks you do in this thread be enough for the event 

mis

popps said:

I realy wished I could get the Enhanced Client functionalities but with the Classic Client look...

Your wishes may come true.

'From the engineering front we are pleased to share our planned Classic Client upgrade is progressing on track and we expect a testable version later this summer.'

https://uo.com/2025/04/29/spring-roadmap-update/

keven2002

popps said:

Venom said:

To a certain point, yes if has to be a clickfest. Otherwise, just go run a tamer and say "all kill."

Consecrate weapon, I believe, can last up to 11 seconds. It also enables paladins to automatically switch their weapon's damage to the mobs lowest resist -- that's a powerful thing. 

Uo for non-mages used to just be a game of engage and run around without clicking (as far as offense). Then they added random special moves procs and finally they made it so players had to manage their mana and pick when to use a special. It's about balance, in my view. Just making things, effectively, less involved for players in the context your asking seems a step back. 

That is correct, "up" to 11 seconds but it can also be 3 seconds... it depens on Karma... for the record, my warrior's Karma is 31,964 so, almost the maxed out 32k ...

This isn't actually 100% accurate... it depends on your skill more than karma. I know this is a wild thought but if you actually logged into TC1 for like 5min you could test yourself but then again I guess you'd rather spend that time writing a wall of words and debate everyone on game mechanics that are 25+ years old (I think macros have been around since UO's start).

At 0 karma with minimal skill I was getting 3 seconds on CW.
At 0 karma with 50 skill I was getting 6 seconds on CW.
At 0 karma with 120 skill I was getting 9 seconds on CW.
At 20k karma with 120 skill I get 12 seconds on CW.
At 31k karma with 120 skill I get 12 seconds on CW.

Point blank if you play UO, you are going to have macros...it doesn't matter what template you use. We could use your same logic on magery spells.... they only last 1 spells vs multiple swings. 

In all seriousness though, I will give you one tip and then I'm done with this pointless thread; put CW on your "MW Up" macro (or down) and you won't ever need to "click" for CW ever again. If you put "bandage self" on the opposite direction of the mouse wheel, you have just given yourself like 50% of the macros that a paladin needs to play on your mouse with one hand.

Pawain

popps said:

Pawain said:

@ popps  why don't you use the correct weapon and have a suit with the proper stats?

None of my toons with chivalry use consecrate often.  Never use Divine Fury.  EoO and Remove Curse are the ones you should be using often.

Why did you pick things you need because your suit and equipment are lacking?  You don't have elemental weapons?  You don't have enough stamina to swing at max speed?

Paladin in Diablo 3 was like playing a piano.

Well, sometimes, rather then to have multiple weapons for multiple targets with different weakest resists, it might be "handier" to just use 1 good weapon and use Consecrate Weapon... but then, as it now works and lasts (too shortly), it becomes a click fest, at least to my liking, unfortunately...

Personally, when things become too tedious for me, it takes the fun out of it, at least for me...

I do that with my archers.  They don't have all the element weapons.
 
But they use AI for the main damage. 

Can yall explain why you are using things like lightning strike and divine fury?  

If you have a good suit, you don't need those.

PlayerSkillFTW

Grimbeard said:

While popps is of course talking nonsense Pawain is as well paladins use both CW and DF constantly 

Not really. Against singular foes like a Peerless/Champ, most Paladins use a 100% Elemental wep that matches that particular opponent's weakest resist, especially Swordsman that also use Onslaught. Most creatures in a Champ spawn are also weak to the same element. Con Wep is most useful against the Khal Ankur champ spawn in Khaldun, where each mob can be practically immune to all but 1 element depending on their color, so it's impossible to be hitting all the mob's weak resist without Con Wep in that case. Other than that, it's only useful for Paladins with GM+ Chiv when attacking opponents with no Slayer vulnerability.

For a Paladin with a good gear set, Divine Fury is basically a detriment. With capped out HCI/SSI (or swing speed)/DI, it provides virtually no benefits, but lowers your DCI. Only useful then for the Stamina refresh, but that can also be compensated for with Stam Leech on wep or wearing Metal Armor.

Cookie

I think Popps has a good point, and of course many players have already answered this question, and resolved it for themselves, and this is one of the reasons for the choices players make.

Any buff that lasts a few seconds in pvm, is absolutely ridiculous. Players can pvm for a couple of hours, and to be expected to keep pressing something basic, or many basic things, every couple of seconds, is a joke.

Having said that, of course warriors have auto hit, and mages have to cast every single spell.

drcossack

popps said:

Petra_Fyde said:

"clicks" are not needed if you set a macro hot key as Mis has pictured.
I don't want it to cost more mana, as then I'd have no mana to cast other spells. 

Some spells are "almost" a must... for example, for a Warrior, Consecrate Weapon and Divine Fury need to be up and working, especially if one needs leeches that depend on damage...

That said, for example, Consecrate Weapon takes 10 mana and can last 3 to 11 seconds, depending on Karma.

Now, if a Warrior needs to cast Consecrate Weapon over and over, that it cost less mana is irrelevant, because every new cast will consume that 10 mana...

What I am trying to say is, what difference would there be in "saving up mana" whether Consecrate Weapon cost 10 mana for a 3 to 11 seconds duration or, say, 20 mana for a 6 to 22 seconds duration if one still has to cast it over and over ?

My point being, that in the end, if I need my Warrior to always have Consecrate Weapon up and running, I need to cast it over and over and thus consume the required mana anyways...

Yet, with a longer duration one would need to cast it less often, albeit with a greater mana consumption for each cast... for balancing purposes...

I know this is a popps post, but I'll bite anyway: Consecrate is a necessity?  Really?  I haven't used it since Shattered Sanctum, and that was only because some of the enemies (the skeletal horses) weren't weak to Fire like the rest of the mobs there - have you tried using 100% damage elemental weapons?  Armor Ignore also exists.  Similarly, I'm rarely using Enemy of One - I get enough damage from Slayer weapon/talisman.  This is on both a thrower and a sampire.

drcossack

Pawain said:

popps said:

Pawain said:

@ popps  why don't you use the correct weapon and have a suit with the proper stats?

None of my toons with chivalry use consecrate often.  Never use Divine Fury.  EoO and Remove Curse are the ones you should be using often.

Why did you pick things you need because your suit and equipment are lacking?  You don't have elemental weapons?  You don't have enough stamina to swing at max speed?

Paladin in Diablo 3 was like playing a piano.

Well, sometimes, rather then to have multiple weapons for multiple targets with different weakest resists, it might be "handier" to just use 1 good weapon and use Consecrate Weapon... but then, as it now works and lasts (too shortly), it becomes a click fest, at least to my liking, unfortunately...

Personally, when things become too tedious for me, it takes the fun out of it, at least for me...

I do that with my archers.  They don't have all the element weapons.
 
But they use AI for the main damage. 

Can yall explain why you are using things like lightning strike and divine fury?  

If you have a good suit, you don't need those.

Simple: Lightning Strike is a lot less mana for the same benefits as Armor Ignore, and you don't have to worry about the doubled mana cost of weapon specials.  When I can't leech/drain mana faster than I expend it (because it does happen with weapon specials being spammed, even on my wraith form throwers), Lightning Strike is a more than acceptable alternative.

PlayerSkillFTW

drcossack said:

Simple: Lightning Strike is a lot less mana for the same benefits as Armor Ignore, and you don't have to worry about the doubled mana cost of weapon specials.  When I can't leech/drain mana faster than I expend it (because it does happen with weapon specials being spammed, even on my wraith form throwers), Lightning Strike is a more than acceptable alternative.

Lightning Strike hasn't been efficient since they doubled it's base Mana Cost from 5 to 10. Lightning Strike has a 20% chance to Critical (ignore all Resists) at 120 Bushido skill. So on average, it'd take you 5 Lightning Strikes to land a Critical, that's 50 Mana base. Armor Ignore is a 100% chance to ignore Resists, at 30 base Mana (20 with 300+ total skillpoints). Even chained, AI is more effective.

Lightning Strike with 55% LMC = 5 Mana Cost. AI with 300+ total skillpoints and 55% LMC = 9 Mana Cost, 18 when chained.

At GM Bushido, Lightning Strike is just 13% Critical Chance.

If your Mana is too low to AI with a Wraith Thrower, you'd honestly be better off just auto attacking a couple times for more Mana regain (not spending 5 Mana per Lightning Strike with 50%+ LMC), so you can start spamming AI again sooner.

With how easy it is to reach 45% HCI on suits nowadays, Lightning Strike provides no benefit whatsoever if it doesn't Crit. So 80% (at best) of the time you use Lightning Strike, you're just throwing away 5+ Mana.

Honestly, they just need to re-work Lightning Strike. Double it's Critical Chance for 2H, and perhaps give it a Lightning or a -DCI debuff (which stacks with the HLD item property, like Surprise Attack does) proc effect as well.

Pawain

I trust PSFTWs posts about game mechanics.  He has gone over most of the spells and masteries and knows what do the most damage under different circumstances.  He has gone over Chivalry spells before, I listened then, and do not press the less beneficial buttons.

Garret

Still think it could be tight to masteries but such spells could become up keep thing with mastery buff or just increase duration if you use relevant mastery.

Cookie

Garret said:

Still think it could be tight to masteries but such spells could become up keep thing with mastery buff or just increase duration if you use relevant mastery.

Not a bad idea actually.

One of my suggestions was for a new additional Summons Mastery - to make mage summons last longer, do more damage - effectively a questline based on summons kills, to level them up as well.
What inspired this? Using RC on my treasure hunter, doing level 3 chests I believe, the RC always ran out on the last ogre lord, and I'm always thinking it would be nice if they were a bit stronger. So based on the amount of summons a character uses, I felt it would not be out of line for the summons to get stronger - for my T Hunter.
I do know that current spell masteries do indeed buff summons, and it is noticeable - unbelievably, I want more.

drcossack

PlayerSkillFTW said:

drcossack said:

Simple: Lightning Strike is a lot less mana for the same benefits as Armor Ignore, and you don't have to worry about the doubled mana cost of weapon specials.  When I can't leech/drain mana faster than I expend it (because it does happen with weapon specials being spammed, even on my wraith form throwers), Lightning Strike is a more than acceptable alternative.

Lightning Strike hasn't been efficient since they doubled it's base Mana Cost from 5 to 10. Lightning Strike has a 20% chance to Critical (ignore all Resists) at 120 Bushido skill. So on average, it'd take you 5 Lightning Strikes to land a Critical, that's 50 Mana base. Armor Ignore is a 100% chance to ignore Resists, at 30 base Mana (20 with 300+ total skillpoints). Even chained, AI is more effective.

Lightning Strike with 55% LMC = 5 Mana Cost. AI with 300+ total skillpoints and 55% LMC = 9 Mana Cost, 18 when chained.

At GM Bushido, Lightning Strike is just 13% Critical Chance.

If your Mana is too low to AI with a Wraith Thrower, you'd honestly be better off just auto attacking a couple times for more Mana regain (not spending 5 Mana per Lightning Strike with 50%+ LMC), so you can start spamming AI again sooner.

With how easy it is to reach 45% HCI on suits nowadays, Lightning Strike provides no benefit whatsoever if it doesn't Crit. So 80% (at best) of the time you use Lightning Strike, you're just throwing away 5+ Mana.

Honestly, they just need to re-work Lightning Strike. Double it's Critical Chance for 2H, and perhaps give it a Lightning or a -DCI debuff (which stacks with the HLD item property, like Surprise Attack does) proc effect as well.

without logging in to look it up, I have around 50 LMC, 27 int/96 mana on my wraith thrower, and an identical build (almost every piece of equipment is a ToT item) for my sampire.  It's the doubled mana cost of spamming armor ignore that's the issue, especially when I'm not leeching anything back; that's a problem that my sampire has rarely had, and I do far less damage there.  I've also come to prefer double strike over armor ignore, especially when I pair it with onslaught.

That said, the only thing I use my throwers for are EM events and the occasional champ spawn.  Auto-attacking doesn't really help in the former due to mob resists, and the latter (particularly the bosses - my throwers are built for single target damage, after all) doesn't last long enough for prolonged lack of mana to matter (assuming it happens at all)

PlayerSkillFTW

Cookie said:

Not a bad idea actually.

One of my suggestions was for a new additional Summons Mastery - to make mage summons last longer, do more damage - effectively a questline based on summons kills, to level them up as well.
What inspired this? Using RC on my treasure hunter, doing level 3 chests I believe, the RC always ran out on the last ogre lord, and I'm always thinking it would be nice if they were a bit stronger. So based on the amount of summons a character uses, I felt it would not be out of line for the summons to get stronger - for my T Hunter.
I do know that current spell masteries do indeed buff summons, and it is noticeable - unbelievably, I want more.

I made a post suggesting summon buffs years ago. https://forum.uo.com/discussion/9606/suggestion-summon-form-revamp#latest

drcossack said:

without logging in to look it up, I have around 50 LMC, 27 int/96 mana on my wraith thrower, and an identical build (almost every piece of equipment is a ToT item) for my sampire.  It's the doubled mana cost of spamming armor ignore that's the issue, especially when I'm not leeching anything back; that's a problem that my sampire has rarely had, and I do far less damage there.  I've also come to prefer double strike over armor ignore, especially when I pair it with onslaught.

That said, the only thing I use my throwers for are EM events and the occasional champ spawn.  Auto-attacking doesn't really help in the former due to mob resists, and the latter (particularly the bosses - my throwers are built for single target damage, after all) doesn't last long enough for prolonged lack of mana to matter (assuming it happens at all)

Life Leech/Drain and Mana Leech/Drain are less effective for ranged weapons than melee weps, that's why the Sampire or melee Whammy doesn't have Mana problems compared to the Wraith Thrower.