PvP and VvV

azuldemogogu

It seems there are only 2 types of murders. 

1. The noob - I remember early on 1 corp por taking out my character. I didn't even seen him because he was not red yet. So it was just a guy trying to go red so he was still blue and just flagged. This was early early days so everyone was kinda going to the same areas to fight monsters to earn gold and skill but because 1 guy got his magery up to 60-65 and now can just EB all the noob warriors. That is really the crux. Should I be forced to interact with murderers in order to train or obtain certain items? I think a lot of pvp solutions are geared to solving that. There definitely should be more ways to get stat scrolls.

2. The gank - once we start getting some parity in strength of characters then we introduced the gank. This could go both ways. There were gangs of red and blues. Almost no matter how strong your guy is, he is not going to withstand a few mana dumps and maybe a dexxer or two. Of course, for years I brough an archer and I could hit with AP or really the best support was dismount cause once I knocked you off your mount the mob would get you. A red may run around a bit and some really good players could fight off a gank for a while but the dismount typically ended all the nonsense. Then, of course, the red rezzes and brings back his buddies. 

It does seem like back then and even today when I see a few pvp fights that a 1v1 usually only declares a victor because one character is outmatched and we can see that from the get-go. If they are more even character strengths, we actually almost just get a stalemate until one can get a gank. It is a little like watching some WWE matches and just know how it's gonna play out. 

Lastly, South Park did a pker episode when the boys started playing WoW and they worked together and trained for a long time and finally killed the pker and I always found the funniest line was what one of them says right after they win, "Ok now we can start playing the game". What did you think you were doing the whole time? I think murderers are just part of a real ecosystem. I think there should just be more penalties for being red. Back in the day it was really only you can't go to towns and someone can't help you without becoming a criminal. I think you should have a npc task force that is a bit revenant-esque that will track these individuals into an inescapable event should they get found like just being guard ganked, having a trial, and/or possible execution. If the argument is travelling out into the world is full of peril then society also has corrections for that and I do get a little tired of playing the guy who has to dole out the justice or vengeance. The NPC should take care of that especially back in the day when we could report murderers and stuff. Not sure how all that works anymore. We used to cut up the bodies and drop the red's head off to a guard and get paid and we would protect a lot of places. I think the game system should help enacting justice and compensating players killed by murderers. 

Pickles

I strongly agree with azuldemogogu's comment.

PK (Player Killing) was a very interesting attempt during the early era when Ultima Online was trying to simulate a real-world environment.

However, there is a major difference between PKs and general players.
PKs (PvPers) prepare specialized skill sets focused on PvP and are ready to ambush others, while general players mainly focus on PvM. Preparing for PvP significantly reduces their PvM efficiency, and having their hard-earned treasures stolen one-sidedly becomes a massive source of stress.

In the real world, crimes do not happen freely because law enforcement, criminal penalties, and other forms of social sanctions act as deterrents, allowing people to live their lives with a sense of safety.

In contrast, in NL’s PvP system — taking the example of Champion Spawns — everyone becomes an orange name under the customized VvV system, allowing unilateral attacks, and there are no penalties or disadvantages for the PKers.
This is not fair.

I want to enjoy the game, and I do not want to be constantly tormented by selfish PKers.

If one just wants to engage in PvP within NL system like topic starter, then the VvV system should be revised to its original form where PvP is only between consenting guilds, or alternatively, use the existing guild PvP system that is already implemented.

If open-world PvP is to be introduced as part of the ecosystem, then as Azuldemogogu suggested, PKers must face significant penalties. Since players in NL can only have two characters and the user base is small, relying solely on the player community to prepare PvP countermeasures is a difficult problem. Also, in the old era around 2000, the player community was large, and there were PK Killer organizations, but with the player base in 2025, that is a much harder reality.

Therefore, the game system itself should also include mechanisms for punishing PKers and protecting PvM players — for example, introducing "Wandering Guards" similar to Wandering Healers.

Otherwise, general players who want to enjoy PvM will only be dragged into the pleasures of PKers against their will, and the experience will not be fun.

The game will inevitably decline if griefers increase and casual PvM becomes difficult.

Furthermore, when forcing a different gameplay experience upon players who are cooperating and enjoying PvM, just because "the system allows it" does not mean "the community will accept it."

Saying "the system allows it, so you must always be prepared" after hunting down PvM players, I feel it is extremely self-centered. Such PK players should be prepared to be disliked and criticized within the community.

Personally, I enjoyed the conversation with the old-school UO style of role-playing PKs.

Some old era PKs played as bandits, demanding you drop your belongings before attacking, or communities that role-played as Orcs. However, it is not enjoyable to always have to be prepared for random griefing PKers in NL while enjoying PvM.