KYRONIX, please, tone down Mana requirement for Taming "As One"

KroDuK · 6:00AM

Democracy is the least worst political system.

How to start.. Where to begin.. there is soooo much!
Even Keven (sry) comment is tilting; just say synergize..

@JackFlashUk we both know that cheat code exist, no wonder he keeps asking for them from the dev.. Even Cookie is here asking for the same.. he can't be bother to write his own scripts; that "knowledge" have long been lost.

The dude is legit saying giving full power on economy to the bots was some of the best game design ever. *smh*

Paiwan still hvn't pick a lane.. gj on practicing a new 180 degree speech about the pack, tho

Nah yeah, I won't write 3 pages.. there is way too much..

Edit: like let's automate everything and remove the 700-720 skill limit.
I could have written one paragraph for ~80% of the sentence from this post..

Grimbeard · 6:23AM

Violet said:

Cookie said:

@ Violet - I'm going to use you as an elite Tamer example here, I used to see this so much in crafting;
There has to be a downside of using pack animals and they are supposed to be situational. Furthermore, they aren't for everyone.
Why?

Shadow Hounds (and all 5 pack animals) are meant to be glass cannons, they can do more damage than a 5 slot pet. To balance that they have less health and resists, as one costs more mana, and they end up being more situational or more influenced by the tamer's ability/spec. Also apparently for some they can be more difficult to control.

As One cost 40 mana same as consume damage?

KroDuK · 6:26AM

Image: https://forum.uo.com/uploads/editor/6d/24oc531a8hpe.png

popps · 7:44AM

ForeverFun said:

Make sure your pack animals are all skilled to 100 in Wrestling and Parry.
Then skill the remaining skills to 100.
Use another player/friend/etc to help skill the pet up, have them take primary attack position with a 5 slot pet.
Consider only using taming masteries during skilling up and training pets. This will make you a better player.
One reason to use pack pets is the lower taming and lore requirements. That's counter to using the taming masteries, as those should be used when you have 120 real taming and lore skills.
Take packs of 5 to boss fights, when there are many other players there. Target switching isn't such a problem here, as the boss will switch away from your pet anyway. Even the MOE boss was a good target for packs of hounds.
Don't take pack pets to certain AOE attack bosses, like the exodus and zipactriol area attacks.
Pack pets aren't really necessary for lesser than boss monsters.
Get to LMC55 if you insist on using mana heavy masteries.

Thank you for your contribution, I have a couple of questions on two of the suggestions tha you make.

At point 3 you suggest to use another player/friend/etc to help skill the pet up and have them take primary attack position with a 5 slot pet. Do you mean that the training of a pack instinct pet should be done individually (one pet of the pack at the time, not using the entire pack at once) and with another tamer using another pet, a 5 slot one, to tank the target which the pack pet under training would be hitting ?

So far, for other non-pack pets training, I learned that it was better to have them hit Gregorio at Skara Brae, or Shadow Elementals at the Tokuno mines and so forth...

To train up pack instinct animals it is a completely different training ?

Then, in regards to your suggestion 9, you suggest to get to Lower Mana Cost 55 when using mana heavy masteries... but doesn't LMC55 use suits which reduce the Mana Regen ?

So, while on one side one would gain 15 LMC from 40 to 55, one would suffer a reduction of mana regen and wouldn't this actually worsen the mana upkeep rather then bettering it ?

Thank you.

Iniquity · 7:54AM

Grimbeard said:

Violet said:

Cookie said:

@ Violet - I'm going to use you as an elite Tamer example here, I used to see this so much in crafting;
There has to be a downside of using pack animals and they are supposed to be situational. Furthermore, they aren't for everyone.
Why?

Shadow Hounds (and all 5 pack animals) are meant to be glass cannons, they can do more damage than a 5 slot pet. To balance that they have less health and resists, as one costs more mana, and they end up being more situational or more influenced by the tamer's ability/spec. Also apparently for some they can be more difficult to control.

As One cost 40 mana same as consume damage?

Image: https://forum.uo.com/uploads/editor/zz/esfcras9chg2.jpg

Garret · 8:56AM

Tier 1 – The One Allows pets to share damage while they are close to their master. Requires multiple pets to active.

I think that is design idea to be aka beast master and fight in melee combat with your pets so that choice is for combat tamer characters with mana leach.
You still can combine mr + mage weapon mana leach weapon if you prefer play mage type tamer but still mastery says you have to stay close, so i think it means to be melee fighter tamer build and have enough mr + mana leach to use it.

P.S. like we have choices in game all the time right ? nobody complain that if you are sworder that is not fair to not be able use bows. This type of mastery could have different core idea as well.

popps · 9:33AM

Garret said:

Tier 1 – The One Allows pets to share damage while they are close to their master. Requires multiple pets to active.

I think that is design idea to be aka beast master and fight in melee combat with your pets so that choice is for combat tamer characters with mana leach.
You still can combine mr + mage weapon mana leach weapon if you prefer play mage type tamer but still mastery says you have to stay close, so i think it means to be melee fighter tamer build and have enough mr + mana leach to use it.

P.S. like we have choices in game all the time right ? nobody complain that if you are sworder that is not fair to not be able use bows. This type of mastery could have different core idea as well.

I imagine that, for Combat Tamers, you mean melee since ranged fights from a distance, not toe to toe and this would bring the tamer not close to the pack instinct pets... most tamers, understandably for the mana and thus high intelligence needs, are either spellcasting Tamers or Bard Tamers, I do not see combat tamers much at all... mana needs high intelligence, 120 meditation, perhaps also focus as high as possible, melee needs high dexterity and getting a mix of both helps neither... the issue that pact instinct pets are a situational type of pet, does not help making the choice for a Tamer with combat and high dexterity and low intelligence since the occasions to use pact instinct pets are too few, to my opinion, to justify building a Tamer for combat and with high dexterity and low intelligence.

Furthermore, if the Tamer has low intelligence because they have high dexterity for melee combat, how would he/she deal with the very intensive need for mana that The One taming mastery has ?

Violet · 9:37AM

Grimbeard said:

As One cost 40 mana same as consume damage?

I was referring to the upkeep cost as that was the complaint of Popps. Nice try.

Garret said:

Tier 1 – The One Allows pets to share damage while they are close to their master. Requires multiple pets to active.

I think that is design idea to be aka beast master and fight in melee combat with your pets so that choice is for combat tamer characters with mana leach.

I do not think this was the actual design idea behind As One. But it is a good use of it, although a lot of the time not needed really depending on your setup and what you are doing. Packs can do really well on archers using the archery mastery Playing the Odds also.

And yes, there are choices in game, everything and everyone doesn't need to be the same.

popps · 9:40AM

Iniquity said:

Grimbeard said:

Violet said:

Cookie said:

@ Violet - I'm going to use you as an elite Tamer example here, I used to see this so much in crafting;
There has to be a downside of using pack animals and they are supposed to be situational. Furthermore, they aren't for everyone.
Why?

Shadow Hounds (and all 5 pack animals) are meant to be glass cannons, they can do more damage than a 5 slot pet. To balance that they have less health and resists, as one costs more mana, and they end up being more situational or more influenced by the tamer's ability/spec. Also apparently for some they can be more difficult to control.

As One cost 40 mana same as consume damage?

Thank you, noticed I made 2 mistakes in my OP, I indicated the need for 115 Focus while 120 Focus (alongside with 120 Meditation) would be needed and that the As One mana cost is 3.72 mana per second while I indicated in the OP about 3.6 .

Bottom line is, that the As One Mastery even having 150 INT, 30 MR, 120 Meditation and Focus, 40 LMC and having real 120 Taming and Animal Lore skills (all things not easy to be achieved all of them together...), can only reach an output of 3.65 mana per seconds while the As One Taming Mastery needs 3.72 mana per seconds to keep running...

And this, just to keep the As One Mastery running, forget about casting Greater Heals or other spells...

Personally, I think the mana requirement for the As One Mastery is way too high and should be reduced and quite some, to make pack instinct pets more usable for Tamers.

Cookie · 10:06AM

Leave you all to it, I'm not here to argue with tamers on taming, my original Cu still has a display bug where it swallowed a 120 Tactics, and it does not show on the display, even though he has the 120 tactics skill.

On one hand, some impressive number crunching by popps, on the other, decent explanations by everyone, but for me, it boils down to when a player plays the game - what does it feel like, how smooth, how much sense does it make when you play it.

If popps is playing this, and his comments come from that point of view, then what he says is valid. If he is just number crunching, maybe not so. The same to everyone. It's all very well saying it should work like this etc, this is why it's done, but ultimately it's about how playable for someone as a player. In pvp, I can just feel when something is off.

Garret · 11:17AM

popps said:

Garret said:

Tier 1 – The One Allows pets to share damage while they are close to their master. Requires multiple pets to active.

I think that is design idea to be aka beast master and fight in melee combat with your pets so that choice is for combat tamer characters with mana leach.
You still can combine mr + mage weapon mana leach weapon if you prefer play mage type tamer but still mastery says you have to stay close, so i think it means to be melee fighter tamer build and have enough mr + mana leach to use it.

P.S. like we have choices in game all the time right ? nobody complain that if you are sworder that is not fair to not be able use bows. This type of mastery could have different core idea as well.

I imagine that, for Combat Tamers, you mean melee since ranged fights from a distance, not toe to toe and this would bring the tamer not close to the pack instinct pets... most tamers, understandably for the mana and thus high intelligence needs, are either spellcasting Tamers or Bard Tamers, I do not see combat tamers much at all... mana needs high intelligence, 120 meditation, perhaps also focus as high as possible, melee needs high dexterity and getting a mix of both helps neither... the issue that pact instinct pets are a situational type of pet, does not help making the choice for a Tamer with combat and high dexterity and low intelligence since the occasions to use pact instinct pets are too few, to my opinion, to justify building a Tamer for combat and with high dexterity and low intelligence.

Furthermore, if the Tamer has low intelligence because they have high dexterity for melee combat, how would he/she deal with the very intensive need for mana that The One taming mastery has ?

I don’t see any reason to believe that a tamer must be only a magician with high intelligence and regenerative skills.
You can combine thrower with parry for greater protection and leeches, you can play with shadowstrike to reset aggro, you can play force arrows or just from a distance if you are an archer.
Pet healing is also not tied only to mastery and magery, there is veterinary, there is bard masterys, there is chivalry with a large FC this is a very strong healing and chivalry is mostly melee disign so you will able do more damage and leech mana aswell, there is wrath form aswell for extra mana drain - you can have wrath form withoit any investments in to this skills (Pro tip - wrath from drain mana with bard mastery despair for infinite loop).
But if the question is only about the balance of mana, please note that the bard barely has enough mana to support his songs, if the bard begins to use additional abilities during songs, then he will also find himself without mana, in any solo situation a melee fighter cannot constantly use one ability since it increases in cost in a 3 second window.
So I think that the original idea is that abilities should cost more than you can afford. Manage the character and play the game not with mindless cast of all the abilities, but using them according to the situation? But today we have so many characteristics and strong items that we shouldn’t focus only on the Tamer Mage and try other combinations.
But even if your choice was only on this combination, isn’t it logical that you should not always be able to do everything at once, as a magical character you probably want to keep your distance, and the meaning of the ability (as one) to stand next to your pets somehow does not fit into class Identity?

Grimbeard · 11:39AM

It's 5 pets not one of course upkeep is high this changes nothing popps can adapt or not use a pack

popps · 12:38PM

Cookie said:

Leave you all to it, I'm not here to argue with tamers on taming, my original Cu still has a display bug where it swallowed a 120 Tactics, and it does not show on the display, even though he has the 120 tactics skill.

On one hand, some impressive number crunching by popps, on the other, decent explanations by everyone, but for me, it boils down to when a player plays the game - what does it feel like, how smooth, how much sense does it make when you play it.

If popps is playing this, and his comments come from that point of view, then what he says is valid. If he is just number crunching, maybe not so. The same to everyone. It's all very well saying it should work like this etc, this is why it's done, but ultimately it's about how playable for someone as a player. In pvp, I can just feel when something is off.

Yes, the Tamer is my favourite template in the game yet, more and more I fid myself using a Warrior because it turns out to be more effective, unfortunately, at spawns...

I would love to get back to playing a Tamer and the Shadow Hounds could have been a good reason to go back to using a Tamer for me yet, when I see all of the downsides already explained to use pack instinct pets, on top of which there is also the mana hungry As One Taming Mastery, I start questioning to myself why should I bother if then it will be more headaches then usefullness for me to go back using my Tamer with a pack of Shadow Hounds...

If, instead, the Mana requirement for the As One Taming Mastery was smaller, and quite some, I could find more reasons and more places to go play a Tamer with a pack of Shadow Hounds.

popps · 12:43PM

Garret said:

popps said:

Garret said:

Tier 1 – The One Allows pets to share damage while they are close to their master. Requires multiple pets to active.

I think that is design idea to be aka beast master and fight in melee combat with your pets so that choice is for combat tamer characters with mana leach.
You still can combine mr + mage weapon mana leach weapon if you prefer play mage type tamer but still mastery says you have to stay close, so i think it means to be melee fighter tamer build and have enough mr + mana leach to use it.

P.S. like we have choices in game all the time right ? nobody complain that if you are sworder that is not fair to not be able use bows. This type of mastery could have different core idea as well.

I imagine that, for Combat Tamers, you mean melee since ranged fights from a distance, not toe to toe and this would bring the tamer not close to the pack instinct pets... most tamers, understandably for the mana and thus high intelligence needs, are either spellcasting Tamers or Bard Tamers, I do not see combat tamers much at all... mana needs high intelligence, 120 meditation, perhaps also focus as high as possible, melee needs high dexterity and getting a mix of both helps neither... the issue that pact instinct pets are a situational type of pet, does not help making the choice for a Tamer with combat and high dexterity and low intelligence since the occasions to use pact instinct pets are too few, to my opinion, to justify building a Tamer for combat and with high dexterity and low intelligence.

Furthermore, if the Tamer has low intelligence because they have high dexterity for melee combat, how would he/she deal with the very intensive need for mana that The One taming mastery has ?

I don’t see any reason to believe that a tamer must be only a magician with high intelligence and regenerative skills.
You can combine thrower with parry for greater protection and leeches, you can play with shadowstrike to reset aggro, you can play force arrows or just from a distance if you are an archer.
Pet healing is also not tied only to mastery and magery, there is veterinary, there is bard masterys, there is chivalry with a large FC this is a very strong healing and chivalry is mostly melee disign so you will able do more damage and leech mana aswell, there is wrath form aswell for extra mana drain - you can have wrath form withoit any investments in to this skills (Pro tip - wrath from drain mana with bard mastery despair for infinite loop).
But if the question is only about the balance of mana, please note that the bard barely has enough mana to support his songs, if the bard begins to use additional abilities during songs, then he will also find himself without mana, in any solo situation a melee fighter cannot constantly use one ability since it increases in cost in a 3 second window.
So I think that the original idea is that abilities should cost more than you can afford. Manage the character and play the game not with mindless cast of all the abilities, but using them according to the situation? But today we have so many characteristics and strong items that we shouldn’t focus only on the Tamer Mage and try other combinations.
But even if your choice was only on this combination, isn’t it logical that you should not always be able to do everything at once, as a magical character you probably want to keep your distance, and the meaning of the ability (as one) to stand next to your pets somehow does not fit into class Identity?

I get your point, it is only that the Taming Masteries use Mana, and a lot of it, while a Warrior needs dexterity for faster swinging... to me, they look 2 dfferent needs not merging well one with the needs of the other...

And this, particularly when using pack instinct pets which are very weak since they remain usually at slot 1, at most slot 2 and, thus, need continuous healing especially if the Target hits hard... pack instinct pets have low resistances... the strongest for Shadow House in Physical and Cold only get up to 65%... Fire, mind you, only goes up to 45% Poison and Energy can only go up to 35%... this means, that these pets do take hits, they do need frequent healing because if they start dieing the fight becomes a mess... veterinary needs skill points, close wounds from chivalry could help (not sure if close wounds heals less as compared to greater heal if one has less then 120 chivalry), but the issue with Taming Masteries depending on mana still remains when having to decide between intelligence or dexterity...

popps · 12:49PM

Grimbeard said:

It's 5 pets not one of course upkeep is high this changes nothing popps can adapt or not use a pack

So the solution is that of not playing game content rather then making it more playable by reducing the mana consumption for the As One Taming Mastery ?

I see....

Garret · 1:35PM

popps said:

Garret said:

popps said:

Garret said:

Tier 1 – The One Allows pets to share damage while they are close to their master. Requires multiple pets to active.

I think that is design idea to be aka beast master and fight in melee combat with your pets so that choice is for combat tamer characters with mana leach.
You still can combine mr + mage weapon mana leach weapon if you prefer play mage type tamer but still mastery says you have to stay close, so i think it means to be melee fighter tamer build and have enough mr + mana leach to use it.

P.S. like we have choices in game all the time right ? nobody complain that if you are sworder that is not fair to not be able use bows. This type of mastery could have different core idea as well.

I imagine that, for Combat Tamers, you mean melee since ranged fights from a distance, not toe to toe and this would bring the tamer not close to the pack instinct pets... most tamers, understandably for the mana and thus high intelligence needs, are either spellcasting Tamers or Bard Tamers, I do not see combat tamers much at all... mana needs high intelligence, 120 meditation, perhaps also focus as high as possible, melee needs high dexterity and getting a mix of both helps neither... the issue that pact instinct pets are a situational type of pet, does not help making the choice for a Tamer with combat and high dexterity and low intelligence since the occasions to use pact instinct pets are too few, to my opinion, to justify building a Tamer for combat and with high dexterity and low intelligence.

Furthermore, if the Tamer has low intelligence because they have high dexterity for melee combat, how would he/she deal with the very intensive need for mana that The One taming mastery has ?

I don’t see any reason to believe that a tamer must be only a magician with high intelligence and regenerative skills.
You can combine thrower with parry for greater protection and leeches, you can play with shadowstrike to reset aggro, you can play force arrows or just from a distance if you are an archer.
Pet healing is also not tied only to mastery and magery, there is veterinary, there is bard masterys, there is chivalry with a large FC this is a very strong healing and chivalry is mostly melee disign so you will able do more damage and leech mana aswell, there is wrath form aswell for extra mana drain - you can have wrath form withoit any investments in to this skills (Pro tip - wrath from drain mana with bard mastery despair for infinite loop).
But if the question is only about the balance of mana, please note that the bard barely has enough mana to support his songs, if the bard begins to use additional abilities during songs, then he will also find himself without mana, in any solo situation a melee fighter cannot constantly use one ability since it increases in cost in a 3 second window.
So I think that the original idea is that abilities should cost more than you can afford. Manage the character and play the game not with mindless cast of all the abilities, but using them according to the situation? But today we have so many characteristics and strong items that we shouldn’t focus only on the Tamer Mage and try other combinations.
But even if your choice was only on this combination, isn’t it logical that you should not always be able to do everything at once, as a magical character you probably want to keep your distance, and the meaning of the ability (as one) to stand next to your pets somehow does not fit into class Identity?

I get your point, it is only that the Taming Masteries use Mana, and a lot of it, while a Warrior needs dexterity for faster swinging... to me, they look 2 dfferent needs not merging well one with the needs of the other...

And this, particularly when using pack instinct pets which are very weak since they remain usually at slot 1, at most slot 2 and, thus, need continuous healing especially if the Target hits hard... pack instinct pets have low resistances... the strongest for Shadow House in Physical and Cold only get up to 65%... Fire, mind you, only goes up to 45% Poison and Energy can only go up to 35%... this means, that these pets do take hits, they do need frequent healing because if they start dieing the fight becomes a mess... veterinary needs skill points, close wounds from chivalry could help (not sure if close wounds heals less as compared to greater heal if one has less then 120 chivalry), but the issue with Taming Masteries depending on mana still remains when having to decide between intelligence or dexterity...

So i see it is more like game design and class balance issue then mana issue.

vortex · 1:46PM

Popps post your stats if you want people to help you ignore them asking... You have med? What's your mana Regen and LMC ... This is why I'd never help you with your questions you never reply when people ask you and then you just abandon your post and start a new random topic.

People are going out of their way to help you and you just debate back.. answer questions if you want help you wonder why every thread you make gets locked

ForeverFun · 2:38PM

popps said:

ForeverFun said:

Make sure your pack animals are all skilled to 100 in Wrestling and Parry.
Then skill the remaining skills to 100.
Use another player/friend/etc to help skill the pet up, have them take primary attack position with a 5 slot pet.
Consider only using taming masteries during skilling up and training pets. This will make you a better player.
One reason to use pack pets is the lower taming and lore requirements. That's counter to using the taming masteries, as those should be used when you have 120 real taming and lore skills.
Take packs of 5 to boss fights, when there are many other players there. Target switching isn't such a problem here, as the boss will switch away from your pet anyway. Even the MOE boss was a good target for packs of hounds.
Don't take pack pets to certain AOE attack bosses, like the exodus and zipactriol area attacks.
Pack pets aren't really necessary for lesser than boss monsters.
Get to LMC55 if you insist on using mana heavy masteries.

At point 3 you suggest to use another player/friend/etc to help skill the pet up and have them take primary attack position with a 5 slot pet. Do you mean that the training of a pack instinct pet should be done individually (one pet of the pack at the time, not using the entire pack at once) and with another tamer using another pet, a 5 slot one, to tank the target which the pack pet under training would be hitting ?

Then, in regards to your suggestion 9, you suggest to get to Lower Mana Cost 55 when using mana heavy masteries... but doesn't LMC55 use suits which reduce the Mana Regen ?
So, while on one side one would gain 15 LMC from 40 to 55, one would suffer a reduction of mana regen and wouldn't this actually worsen the mana upkeep rather then bettering it ?

Thank you.

Most skills you can train all 5 pets at the same time. I find that for resisting spells, training 1 pet at a time is easiest, when used with the "whispering" animal taming mastery. Of course, you can manage several pets with discreet pet commands, but that's a bit more to manage. If your pets are expected to be receiving damage, that's when having another player tank helps. The crazed mage is a common example.

LMC55 implies non medable armor, which implies you may as well not invest in Meditation skill. I usually run with zero meditation. If you run the calc here, you'll see the upkeep is impacted significantly.

If you look at points 6, and 8 above, you'll mostly be using pack pets at boss fights. Any given boss fight, with other players around, usually lasts at most 2 minutes (much less on say atlantic). So you don't need these masteries running indefinitely. Beyond that, it's very easy to get looting rights with a pack, you don't even need them active the entire fight.

As others note, there are plenty of ways to leech or drain mana too. For most boss fights, you may as well be in some sort of helpful form as well.

Victim_Of_Siege · 3:23PM

vortex said:

Popps post your stats if you want people to help you ignore them asking... You have med? What's your mana Regen and LMC ... This is why I'd never help you with your questions you never reply when people ask you and then you just abandon your post and start a new random topic.
People are going out of their way to help you and you just debate back.. answer questions if you want help you wonder why every thread you make gets locked

He's a troll. plain and simple, has done this a very long time. It's that or he feels it's his duty to keep the boards loaded with threads, regardless of their content.

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KYRONIX, please, tone down Mana requirement for Taming "As One"

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