The war on unapproved 3rd party

Lord_Nythrax

Pawain said:

Yet u still are here playing.

Why are you sitting here defending literal trash instead of demanding better? The clients I'm describing are open source software. The complete source code is available to the public. The developers could just go get one, clip out the scripting engine and the front end interface meant to let you connect it to random freeshards, and suddenly we would have the client everyone wishes they would make. As far as I know there's literally nothing stopping them. There's even Mac and Linux versions, and a version that runs in a web browser.

Why are you not mad that they're charging you money for the worst version of the game?

Pawain

Lord_Nythrax said:

Pawain said:

Yet u still are here playing.

Why are you sitting here defending literal trash instead of demanding better? The clients I'm describing are open source software. The complete source code is available to the public. The developers could just go get one, clip out the scripting engine and the front end interface meant to let you connect it to random freeshards, and suddenly we would have the client everyone wishes they would make. As far as I know there's literally nothing stopping them. There's even Mac and Linux versions, and a version that runs in a web browser.

Why are you not mad that they're charging you money for the worst version of the game?

I went through the whole skilling process of NL with 3 macros on CC over the weekend.

The game does not need automation.  Players do not want cheaters in the game.

The devs gave us the clients with the capabilities they want to use.

Yall can go with a more constructive way to get changes in the clients visual capabilities.
Name calling and demeaning the devs and game is going to get NOTHING done.

Do you perform better when some random person is demeaning you and calling you names?

Lord_Nythrax

Pawain said:

I went through the whole skilling process of NL with 3 macros on CC over the weekend.

The game does not need automation.  Players do not want cheaters in the game.

I'm sorry, did you not actually read my last couple of posts? I've been very clear that the developers should take an open source client and remove the scripting elements from it. I've said that repeatedly. Can you explain why you even bothered to type this response?

I don't really care how sad it makes the developers to hear that their existing client is the worst one out there, it's just objectively factually true. Rip out every single bit of automation from the freeshard clients and they're still infinitely superior. They look better, run better, and have tons of quality of life improvements.

Lord_Frodo

@Lord_Nythrax have you used the EC and if so did it take care of the size/resolution problem?  IMHO I would love to use the EC with the CC graphics and again IMHO that would fix a lot of problems in UO and only the cheaters would be left using the CC wanna bees

Pawain

Lord_Nythrax said:

Pawain said:

I went through the whole skilling process of NL with 3 macros on CC over the weekend.

The game does not need automation.  Players do not want cheaters in the game.

I'm sorry, did you not actually read my last couple of posts? I've been very clear that the developers should take an open source client and remove the scripting elements from it. I've said that repeatedly. Can you explain why you even bothered to type this response?

I don't really care how sad it makes the developers to hear that their existing client is the worst one out there, it's just objectively factually true. Rip out every single bit of automation from the freeshard clients and they're still infinitely superior. They look better, run better, and have tons of quality of life improvements.

They have said they do not copy, or borrow from other sources. They will not even copy new clothing from other sources.

I hope they would not do this.  Who knows what is hidden in the code that would gather info from anyone who logged in.

Nothing you say here is true or fact.  The CC works fine if you do not have to cheat your way through a game.  Funny how I have played for almost 25 years with it, but you say I can not.  

Lord_Nythrax

Lord_Frodo said:

@ Lord_Nythrax have you used the EC and if so did it take care of the size/resolution problem?  IMHO I would love to use the EC with the CC graphics and again IMHO that would fix a lot of problems in UO and only the cheaters would be left using the CC wanna bees

The current EC is such a mess that I won't even consider it. It's just way, way, way too ugly, even the menus and such. The devs don't even seem to use it for anything internally.

Lord_Nythrax

Pawain said:

They have said they do not copy, or borrow from other sources. They will not even copy new clothing from other sources.

I hope they would not do this.  Who knows what is hidden in the code that would gather info from anyone who logged in.

Nothing you say here is true or fact.  The CC works fine if you do not have to cheat your way through a game.  Funny how I have played for almost 25 years with it, but you say I can not.  

"Who knows what is hidden in the code"

Anyone who bothers to look? Again, the complete and documented source code has just been sitting there out in the open for public viewing this entire time and code review isn't some kind of secret black art. Seriously, what kind of question even is this?

"Nothing you say here is true or fact.  The CC works fine if you do not have to cheat your way through a game."

Again, no one is talking about cheating. No one is suggesting they implement a client that allows cheating. I understand that you desperately wish there were some sort of moral high ground you could use to dress up your opinion here, but there just isn't. The CC is the ugliest, worst performing, least convenient UO client around in every way and it isn't even close. (Except for maybe the EC, I guess.) Exactly why are you in such a hurry to simp for it? You should have the self-respect to demand something better. It's embarrassing that people on freeshards are playing with objectively superior software compared to the actual commercial game.

Pawain

Sorry I don't need anything better than CC.  Not picking up Summonds would improve targeting tho.  Notice you can state something that can be improved upon without demeaning someone or name calling.

Lord_Nythrax

Pawain said:

Sorry I don't need anything better than CC.  Not picking up Summonds would improve targeting tho.  Notice you can state something that can be improved upon without demeaning someone or name calling.

So you admit we're being asked to pay for a piece of software worse than what other people are giving away for free (or at least you've stopped trying to argue otherwise) but you're personally happy with this... why? And even if you are a masochist who likes paying for bad software just because, what should anyone else take away from this?

Pawain

Lord_Nythrax said:

Pawain said:

Sorry I don't need anything better than CC.  Not picking up Summonds would improve targeting tho.  Notice you can state something that can be improved upon without demeaning someone or name calling.

So you admit we're being asked to pay for a piece of software worse than what other people are giving away for free (or at least you've stopped trying to argue otherwise) but you're personally happy with this... why? And even if you are a masochist who likes paying for bad software just because, what should anyone else take away from this?

I have played many games in my life.  Do you think they are all perfect?  They are not.

Somehow I have played with that issue, so it is not game changing nor makes the game unplayable.

Urge

I think blocking entry into the game or kicking off the game would be better than doing all out bans. 

MacroPlanet

Vote with your wallets. That’s the only way to get their attention about this issue. 

Pawain

Urge said:

I think blocking entry into the game or kicking off the game would be better than doing all out bans. 

Yup, and they did that with NL.  But, as you see, these cheaters are on a dedicated mission, they will find a way in.

Will be entertaining when they cant log into prodo Shards.

Cookie

Pawain said:

I hope they would not do this.  Who knows what is hidden in the code that would gather info from anyone who logged in.

For the record, the new UO official patches have shown up as a more severe threat than any of the 3rd party programs. I'd be asking what they are doing.

Pawain

Cookie said:

Pawain said:

I hope they would not do this.  Who knows what is hidden in the code that would gather info from anyone who logged in.

For the record, the new UO official patches have shown up as a more severe threat than any of the 3rd party programs. I'd be asking what they are doing.

I would delete UO immediately if I were you. 

Lord_Nythrax

Pawain said:

Urge said:

I think blocking entry into the game or kicking off the game would be better than doing all out bans. 

Yup, and they did that with NL.  But, as you see, these cheaters are on a dedicated mission, they will find a way in.

Will be entertaining when they cant log into prodo Shards.

Will someone please tell Pawain they really want to cheat so he can have a moral hobbyhorse to hang his hat on? Right now he's reduced to just sort of saying he likes bad software.

Lord_Frodo

I do NOT want to cheat but I sure would love the EC UI with the UO Classic look

Petra_Fyde

@Cookie correct me if I'm reading that wrongly, but the protected 'target' file that client.exe was attempting to open was uo.cfg?

I kind of feel it should be allowed to access that one, don't you?

Cookie

Petra_Fyde said:

@ Cookie correct me if I'm reading that wrongly, but the protected 'target' file that client.exe was attempting to open was uo.cfg?

I kind of feel it should be allowed to access that one, don't you?

I'm going to sit on the fence, whilst I'm pointing it out, for those who go on about 3rd party programs and what they do, UO is not much different sometimes in their approach, that is my point. 

Norton anti-virus certainly does not like it - it is a high threat - I don't see this so much, and it depends how hung up people want to be about the rules

I think you know me well enough, I am not that hung up about the rules, I prefer common sense.

I do not mind.

On one hand, yes, I think they have a right to. I completely understand their logic for doing it.

Do I think it is needed? That is back to the original debate - are we hard enforcing anti-cheat or not - and I am not for it.

On the other, how much further will they/can they push this? Is that all they are doing?

Do we break one rule, to fix another

That is my point - I get your point, I'm actually cool with it - hence I enabled the patch - but it cannot all be one way, I only raise it, to counter other points being made.

Cookie

Lord_Nythrax said:

Will someone please tell Pawain they really want to cheat so he can have a moral hobbyhorse to hang his hat on? Right now he's reduced to just sort of saying he likes bad software.

Hi Lord Nythrax,

I don't think I know you ingame.

Just want to say, I completely support everything you have said, and so do most of the player base I play with - Felucca pvpers etc.

We may be the cheaters they all go on about, but, we are having fun, we are in a battle of wits against our opponents, and enjoying ourselves, and the team effort it requires.

We are very active, there are a lot of us.

I would ask the Devs not to mess up our playstyle, as it is one of the most fun playstyles in UO.
I would ask the Devs to support us even, we are pushing UO to new heights.
@Kyronix
@Bleak

I read one poster who posted - how is anything we do even affecting them?
That poster said, our playstyle does not affect what they do.
I agree with that poster.
There is no competition with you, we are not disadvantaging your playstyle.
If there were a competition, we would win hands-down, on any playing field, because that is who we are. BUT, we are not even competing with you. You are in Trammel doing your thing.

To those who say certain ways of play are not available to them - join a guild. I cannot stress how much the way we play UO, is a massive team effort. That is the fun, that is the community for us.

Back to Lord Nythrax, I think you have made your points, there is no need to continue.
I have made my points.
I hope the Devs see it.
I want you, and them to know, there are a huge numbers of players who align with my way of thinking, and playstyle. We do not want you to destroy our playstyle
I will see no reason to keep making further posts.

username

@Mesanna @Kyronix ;

Can we get a few more forced patches? Thanks!

No reason I promise 

Kel

This has been a debate for YEARS (CC vs EC). At the end of the day, the primary argument against EC is the art style and the primary arguments against CC are window size, FPS, features. 

Many of the complaints here are right, the client choices right now aren't the best because neither one offers an experience for everyone, so you're forced to choose what to sacrifice as a player. The 3rd party clients offered a middle ground, which is why people are so up in arms. Honestly, I do think some users are upset about the scripting aspect, but I believe the primary reason is FPS/graphics.

The war against 3rd party clients is a great idea, but peoples' needs must still be met somehow.

Some potential paths forward that would satisfy most users:

• Implement CC graphics option in EC for tiles, sprites and gumps (toggleable back and forth to appease both parties).
• Acquire the MIT licensed open-source code for the 3rd party client and bring it into the fold, removing what needs to be removed and adding what needs to be added to bring it in line with EC and CC, ultimately replacing CC.
• Upgrade CC with a modifiable window size, increased FPS (60), close in on feature parity between CC and EC.

Scripting, botting, etc is bad for UO--no argument there. But a well performing client(s) that appeals to every facet of your audience and reflects 2024 expectations is good for UO.

There are other games from the late 90's and early 2000's that have completed this exercise: modernizing their classic experience to today's standards. It's not an outlandish request, especially with NL on the horizon, bringing back old players and potentially introducing new players.

Cookie

@Kyronix
@Bleak

Going to tug at the heart strings here. <span></span>

My 16 year old son wants to be a Developer.
He loves coding.
He has learned Lua from Roblox, he has learned Python at school, and he is learning JavaScript from UO - of course not intentionally by you guys. He also learns C+.
He is about to start his A Levels which include Computer Science, Maths, Further Maths and Physics, specifically to go in this direction.

All the kids out there, are learning from the current games, they are doing this for fun, they are learning massively from it, this is the way the world is for them, and where many of them will need to go, and the skills they need.

Please help them, help the future, let UO be that guiding light it has always been.

To everyone else - I am a 50+ year old guy. This is all new for me, I was dragged kicking and screaming into it, for starters, other clients play so well, they play mages as they should play, that was the reason I got into it, then as I developed, I learned more, bit by bit, it is fun, it is challenging, it gives you that depth you want, there are no boundaries, this is the whole point.

The reason I started playing UO in the first place, is I am hardcore at everything. I can finish most games in 24 hours solid, that is who I am, I am obsessive, I am competitive. I could not finish UO, you cannot finish it, you develop your own story (and I applaud New Legacy for that point), the current 3rd party scenario gives Veteran players a place to go, to develop ourselves, test us, have fun, challenge us.

Lord_Frodo

@Kel on the Graphics it has to be ALL CC Graphics, the worse are the monsters/animals/pets.  All CC Graphics need to be imported and just the CC Users would have no excuse not to switch over then it would be easy to tell the cheaters.

Kel

Lord_Frodo said:

@ Kel on the Graphics it has to be ALL CC Graphics, the worse are the monsters/animals/pets.  All CC Graphics need to be imported and just the CC Users would have no excuse not to switch over then it would be easy to tell the cheaters.

Absolutely! That's what I was trying to get at, but may not have been super clear. CC themed UI, tiles, walls, characters, mobs all of it. However, for those who DO like the EC look-and-feel they can use that as well within the same client.

Lord_Frodo

Kel said:

Lord_Frodo said:

@ Kel on the Graphics it has to be ALL CC Graphics, the worse are the monsters/animals/pets.  All CC Graphics need to be imported and just the CC Users would have no excuse not to switch over then it would be easy to tell the cheaters.

Absolutely! That's what I was trying to get at, but may not have been super clear. CC themed UI, tiles, walls, characters, mobs all of it. However, for those who DO like the EC look-and-feel they can use that as well within the same client.

We have been asking for that for YEARS  Graphic Switch EC / CC.  I do not care about the ZOOM, just disable it for CC but I do want the EC UI with the CC Graphics.

Victim_Of_Siege

Lord_Frodo said:

Kel said:

Lord_Frodo said:

@ Kel on the Graphics it has to be ALL CC Graphics, the worse are the monsters/animals/pets.  All CC Graphics need to be imported and just the CC Users would have no excuse not to switch over then it would be easy to tell the cheaters.

Absolutely! That's what I was trying to get at, but may not have been super clear. CC themed UI, tiles, walls, characters, mobs all of it. However, for those who DO like the EC look-and-feel they can use that as well within the same client.

We have been asking for that for YEARS  Graphic Switch EC / CC.  I do not care about the ZOOM, just disable it for CC but I do want the EC UI with the CC Graphics.

Agree 100%  But i have been using the EC so long now, I don't care about the graphics anymore. I play it purely for the ease of use, FPS and Macros.  

CovenantX

Kel said:

 The 3rd party clients offered a middle ground, which is why people are so up in arms. Honestly, I do think some users are upset about the scripting aspect, but I believe the primary reason is FPS/graphics.

  Third-party clients would probably get approved for UO if they removed the scripting capabilities but it won't happen, that's the reason the vast majority of people use it for.  you could probably count the people who are using it for the FPS & hi-res on one hand... whether you believe them or not, well that's a different story.

  they jump ship from one assistant/alt-client to the next anytime one with better scripting capabilities comes out.

Cookie said:

@ Kyronix
@ Bleak

Going to tug at the heart strings here. <span></span>

   That's quite a bit of desperation.  Maybe your son should dev- his own client and try getting it approved.

Lord_Frodo

Victim_Of_Siege said:

Lord_Frodo said:

Kel said:

Lord_Frodo said:

@ Kel on the Graphics it has to be ALL CC Graphics, the worse are the monsters/animals/pets.  All CC Graphics need to be imported and just the CC Users would have no excuse not to switch over then it would be easy to tell the cheaters.

Absolutely! That's what I was trying to get at, but may not have been super clear. CC themed UI, tiles, walls, characters, mobs all of it. However, for those who DO like the EC look-and-feel they can use that as well within the same client.

We have been asking for that for YEARS  Graphic Switch EC / CC.  I do not care about the ZOOM, just disable it for CC but I do want the EC UI with the CC Graphics.

Agree 100%  But i have been using the EC so long now, I don't care about the graphics anymore. I play it purely for the ease of use, FPS and Macros.  

That is great but the graphic portion of the EC gives me headaches.  I use it in my house for sorting chests or placing a house but long term I can not plus I really hate the way they redrew most of the mobs.

DeadThing5

CovenantX said:

  Third-party clients would probably get approved for UO if they removed the scripting capabilities but it won't happen, that's the reason the vast majority of people use it for.  you could probably count the people who are using it for the FPS & hi-res on one hand... whether you believe them or not, well that's a different story.

     Do you have a lot of experience with the third party clients? It sounds like you've just heard things about them and have decided to go with it, or just made assumptions. AFAIK everyone uses assistant programs for scripting, which are independently run from the clients. I'm not aware that the clients themselves (except the official EC) have ANY scripting functionality. That's not to say that they don't, it's just if they do I didn't know. Honestly, since you can lua script in the EC I'd be surprised if there is anything that the assistant programs can do that couldn't just be built in to the EC. But, I'm not a lua scripter either. 

     I think most people using third party clients are using them for a improved experience, not in any way that rises to the level of cheating. I get the sense though that there's a camp here that believes anyone not using the official clients is a cheater full stop, and that's honestly unhelpful. It makes it difficult to have a reasonable discussion about this when tempers flare and personal attacks come out so fast. Hell my last post was pretty salty, and I like think of myself as pretty even keeled, so it just gets harder to have a productive discussion when people approach this topic in such a black and white way. 

     The fact that people have been making due with the official clients for years is completely irrelevant in the discission about the quality of the official clients. Nothing about the fact that people have been putting up with them for so long invalidates the myriad complaints people have about them, and saying "well i doesn't bother ME" or "Hey I put up with it" doesn't add anything to the discussion either. 

     A few things I'd like to see in an updated client, however it comes about is a custom, resizable play window (NOT just a small list of resolutions), and this is really an important one: a UI scaler. Let me make the containers bigger if I want, and scale the item sprites too if I want to. A lot of us have aging eyes, have mercy! The better performance of some clients would be nice to see in an official revamp, so would things like ui buttons for macros, counters, buff timers, durability trackers, drag to select healthbars, and something I'd really, really like to see, a true hybrid of EC and CC function, letting us mix and match features we like from the CC and EC freely, instead basically choosing one or the other.