Which expansion is your favorite?

Lord_Nythrax

Cookie said:

Fortnite with 390 million active players is doing pretty badly for a 100% pvp game I suppose,

Fortnite is a shooter LMAO. You may as well have brought up Counterstrike or something.

For an almost direct, and certainly inferior game - Old School RuneScape which stuck to its PvP principals with 49 million players is also doing far worse than UO

Oldschool Runescape has a total of 221 worlds according to the wiki. As far as I can tell only 17 PVP worlds exist, and at least five of them are switched off at any given time according to a scheduled rotation. Really grasping at straws here.

Fact of the matter is, pvp is popular, and successful.

He said as the tumbleweeds blew through Felucca for the 24th year in a row.

loop

My favorites were UOR for Trammel and Third Dawn for Ilshenar, though maybe technically LBR since that’s what made Ilshenar available for 2D.

My least favorite is Age of Shadows. Although the complexity of itemization is neat and in that context insurance makes sense, I feel the game’s direction was to emulate Diablo and ARPGs as opposed to focusing on a living world. It’s a hard one since customized housing is awesome, which I think came with AoS.

I’m on the fence about Stygian Abyss as well since the itemization of Gargoyles infuriates me, but other parts are good.

Not an expansion per se, but the worst update by far was the Kingdom Reborn/EC effort which squandered a lot of resources.

If we consider SA & EC as paired maybe the worst one would be SA.

Part of me also wants to say SE would be the worst since it’s oriental theme is a bit like “jumping the shark” and the skills have never been balanced properly.

Pawain

  

CovenantX

Cookie said:

Deleted. Trust me, you wanted this deleted.

   I didn't want it deleted, cause now I don't know what your response was/would have been!

Cookie said:

Lord_Nythrax said:

Sure, there were a number of games that touted themselves that way, all with a heavy focus on unrestricted PVP. The most prominent one I can think of was Shadowbane. That one lived a whole six years. There were several others but I can't even remember the names offhand anymore.

Fact of the matter is, pvp is popular, and successful.

   I wouldn't go so far as to say that... the massive imbalance that Parry is causing, on top of rampant third-party client use (which heavily favors hard-to-kill templates),  pvp isn't very popular or successful on official shards right now.

 

  I would agree if it were about 10-15 years ago, pvp was very popular, you gotta be smoking something pretty damn good, to have that be your honest opinion nowadays though.

 Non-pvpers can play the way they want, until they start advocating for changes that would damage pvp or fel, and it's the same for pvpers when it comes to asking for changes to things that have negative affects on non-pvpers/areas as well.

 Anyway, to the topic,  I would say I had the most fun also happens to be when I played UO the most,  from around the release of the LBR expansion up until publish 46 so many fights between factions, just random pvp & champ spawns when they were introduced, pvp of course did pick up again within a month or so, after everyone adjusted their templates to the tactics requirements for specials.

.   Then I'd say SA (imbuing) really leveled the playing field in terms of gear accessibility for everyone (which imo, doesn't really do much beyond the few 'essential property caps', nothing like it does now with global loot), everyone had access to the top-tier suits if they went through the trouble of building it, or having someone else build a suit for them.    pvp was absolutely hopping between LS & GL (Atl always is) as the 3 shards I played the most.   I played a little on chessy too, but only had a necro-mage there, I get bored playing the same char/template all the time.        I was just talking to @sibble about it yesterday.

Aside from SA's introduction of Imbuing,  I don't think I'd attribute it directly to the expansions I listed and the ones that were released within the time-frame, but mostly because of the amount of players, thus pvp-action during those times.

Cookie

CovenantX said:

Cookie said:

Deleted. Trust me, you wanted this deleted.

   I didn't want it deleted, cause now I don't know what your response was/would have been!

Cookie said:

Lord_Nythrax said:

Sure, there were a number of games that touted themselves that way, all with a heavy focus on unrestricted PVP. The most prominent one I can think of was Shadowbane. That one lived a whole six years. There were several others but I can't even remember the names offhand anymore.

Fact of the matter is, pvp is popular, and successful.

   I wouldn't go so far as to say that... the massive imbalance that Parry is causing, on top of rampant third-party client use (which heavily favors hard-to-kill templates),  pvp isn't very popular or successful on official shards right now.

 

  I would agree if it were about 10-15 years ago, pvp was very popular, you gotta be smoking something pretty damn good, to have that be your honest opinion nowadays though.

 Non-pvpers can play the way they want, until they start advocating for changes that would damage pvp or fel, and it's the same for pvpers when it comes to asking for changes to things that have negative affects on non-pvpers/areas as well.

 Anyway, to the topic,  I would say I had the most fun also happens to be when I played UO the most,  from around the release of the LBR expansion up until publish 46 so many fights between factions, just random pvp & champ spawns when they were introduced, pvp of course did pick up again within a month or so, after everyone adjusted their templates to the tactics requirements for specials.

.   Then I'd say SA (imbuing) really leveled the playing field in terms of gear accessibility for everyone (which imo, doesn't really do much beyond the few 'essential property caps', nothing like it does now with global loot), everyone had access to the top-tier suits if they went through the trouble of building it, or having someone else build a suit for them.    pvp was absolutely hopping between LS & GL (Atl always is) as the 3 shards I played the most.   I played a little on chessy too, but only had a necro-mage there, I get bored playing the same char/template all the time.        I was just talking to @ sibble about it yesterday.

Aside from SA's introduction of Imbuing,  I don't think I'd attribute it directly to the expansions I listed and the ones that were released within the time-frame, but mostly because of the amount of players, thus pvp-action during those times.

ahh, the note was not to you, it was to the mods.
I was showing you a really cool application made by a cheat client that is helping make the game fun for players. I thought you had seen it, then I deleted it, before the mods could.

Re PvP - I meant PvP in general, as a concept, if UO had not given up on it completely.
I still maintain parry is not the problem, it is the symptom of the problem.
To fix the problem itself, damage output for warriors and mage classes, needs to use different mechanics and formulas against players than monsters - of course they try this a little with certain caps, but they are not enough, the fact is, warriors can often put out 10 times more damage than the spellcasters - who are meant to be the squishy damage classes wearing cloth and using their magics. Warriors are meant to be more tanky, with less damage, but they have blown that one apart, they have it all. Re Parry - I would like nothing more than Mages to be free'd up from the need to use Parry, so they can add in another Pure Mage skill, and be a lot more fun to play.

So re PvP in general, I meant, PvP in general. Fortnite is a pvp game, it does not matter how it is packaged up, it is the mentality of the players - those who want the most fun and excitement playing against other players within any game setting. Certain people are very small minded, and are determined to focus things through a very small lens, and keep UO in that place, it does not have to be. When it comes to game mechanics, pvp players, enjoy UO pvp at its best, when it works.

Right now in pvp - the main issue for me, is the dismounting, this is almost an IWIN button. But maybe I have to live with it, adapt...

Factions of course, was the best time, the teamwork, the friendships, but I was not sure which expansion that was.

In general, even in the worst expansions, there has been a lot of good content, it is really only a couple of critical points that have affected the game. In your mind - cheating/scripting - in my mind - Trammel that paved the way for all of that. I look at causes, not symptoms. AoS, had 2 great skills, Necro and Chivalry, Samurai Empire skills and content were a lot of fun - all they ever needed to do was kill off Sampires - do not let them happen, and let warriors progress in that direction. Instead, they let Sampires dominate the entire narrative of the game, while warriors, and mages died out completely. They have made small inroads into this in more recent times, but the problem is almost, a bit like the 3rd party programs, Sampires have taken too much of a hold, everyone has them, and has invested time into them - I would still, even at this stage, burn sampires out of the game, and improve warrior healing and mage damage output.

This is why I believe Broadsword are building New Legacy, it allows them to learn from a few of their mistakes with UO, and try and get the right, from the start. But me personally, would take a hatchet to the current UO, and fix it from within. I would fix Sampires, I would fix warriors and mages, I would fix Trammel, I would probably fix crafting and looting, and then pvp. I would also fix classic client, and probably wind Enhanced client down. I don't think UO should stand still in maintenance mode, I think it should not be afraid to become the best version of itself.

For all the criticism, I think it is important to say something really obvious we all forget when we are criticizing, UO is actually still one of the best games out there, and no-one should forget this. My boys play all the latest games, including Fortnite, where 1 is an elite ranking, and they play UO, which goes head to head. UO has content like no other. My frustration comes from the fact they do not rebalance a lot of the game, to make it all work hand in hand. Upgrade, re-distribute old loot. I do not even think they have to break certain loot caps, just change the systems of delivery. Spread it out through the dungeons, the current content etc - I know they say this is hard, I really struggle to understand that reason.

My daft elite ranking Fortnite playing son, loves collecting statues in UO... 80% of the statues are hidden in Vet rewards, which now vanish in IDOCS. Something so simple, yet so hard to get? Surely, those statues, should in some way be dispersed throughout the game, from those mobs themselves. It's not like a statue is an OP item. There are some great statues out there still available - Medusa, from Medusa, the Poseidon statue from the Pirates - they make a lot of sense, that is how it should be. Earth Elemental statue from a Vet reward... ? That does not make sense.

Lord_Nythrax

These guys don't seem to have the ambition to make meaningful mechanical changes anymore, so instead we get this kind of cargo cult version of game balance enforced through content updates. Whenever they add something that involves PVM combat, they pick one or two templates out of a hat and then design the encounter such that those templates are almost totally worthless.

Oh this one will be immune to life leech. This one does extra damage to pets. This one will suck in archers every single time they hit it. Whatever. When you don't really understand the game well enough to balance it, but still want to avoid having players complain about how one template does everything, all you can do is make sure every template gets a big dumb monkey wrench thrown in its face every so often.

Like any time things are immune to life leech, I may as well log out or go do something else. On the other hand, I like running Doom, but I don't dare bring anyone down there who's an archer or a mage or something. It's literally easier to solo than to have the Dark Father chasing them around every time they do any damage.

IMHO they should have decoupled chivalry from necromancy a long time ago. Make chivalry spells stop working while you're in necro form, or something like that. Then maybe give those paladin macers they've been soft-pushing an extra nudge somehow. I don't know the template well enough to really comment. But yeah, split melee off into chivless sampires and necro-free pally macers. Then at least there's two good melee templates and they both make at least a little thematic sense.

Disclaimer: I play a chivless sampire just because I want to. Devs pls nerf everyone but me kthxbye.

Grimbeard

Lord_Nythrax said:

These guys don't seem to have the ambition to make meaningful mechanical changes anymore, so instead we get this kind of cargo cult version of game balance enforced through content updates. Whenever they add something that involves PVM combat, they pick one or two templates out of a hat and then design the encounter such that those templates are almost totally worthless.

Oh this one will be immune to life leech. This one does extra damage to pets. This one will suck in archers every single time they hit it. Whatever. When you don't really understand the game well enough to balance it, but still want to avoid having players complain about how one template does everything, all you can do is make sure every template gets a big dumb monkey wrench thrown in its face every so often.

Like any time things are immune to life leech, I may as well log out or go do something else. On the other hand, I like running Doom, but I don't dare bring anyone down there who's an archer or a mage or something. It's literally easier to solo than to have the Dark Father chasing them around every time they do any damage.

IMHO they should have decoupled chivalry from necromancy a long time ago. Make chivalry spells stop working while you're in necro form, or something like that. Then maybe give those paladin macers they've been soft-pushing an extra nudge somehow. I don't know the template well enough to really comment. But yeah, split melee off into chivless sampires and necro-free pally macers. Then at least there's two good melee templates and they both make at least a little thematic sense.

Disclaimer: I play a chivless sampire just because I want to. Devs pls nerf everyone but me kthxbye.

Necro leeches should scale off spirt speak level ..

Smaug

I thought that the game was the most fun at launch and as some of the other new servers were being brought online like Sonoma (which I left Pacific for to start on shard birth). I know the open PvP was very controversial, and I still some times go back to Google groups and read over some of the old 1997-1998 USENET discussion threads (rec.games.computer.ultima.online) where this was heavily debated - and often joined by Raph Koster (Designer Dragon) and other OSI folks. I still believe it added the thing that made it truly frustrating, and exciting at the same time. 

After that, probably Second Age, which I got to beta test. In fact, we placed a house just outside the east gate of Delucia which was removed the next day by GMs

CovenantX

Cookie said:

CovenantX said:

Cookie said:

Deleted. Trust me, you wanted this deleted.

   I didn't want it deleted, cause now I don't know what your response was/would have been!

ahh, the note was not to you, it was to the mods.
I was showing you a really cool application made by a cheat client that is helping make the game fun for players. I thought you had seen it, then I deleted it, before the mods could.

   Ahh, fair enough

   Well, the real problem is the amount of mods an entire suit can achieve caps (both hard & soft caps) the part where we seem to disagree is that  Parry (imo -and it's been done in the past) should be nerfed, instead of rebalancing the entire loot system again.    *This does not include upgrading old reward items that currenty drop, finish the revamps of doom, look at which items people very rarely or never use, from peerless/replicas,  shadowguard, underwater etc. and buff the underused ones, but there has to be attention paid to what people actually like, and don't throw random mods on an item where none of them are good, because no one would use it still.

 Most everything I suggest to make pvp more fun, involves players being able to kill each other faster (one vs one), instead of  "if you don't only group pvp, there is no pvp for you".

 I've never played fortnite, but there's no doubt it's very popular, it doesn't matter how pvp is packaged (as you say)  but it does matter if it's fun/enjoyable.

I thought about NL the same way, I hope it's the case but I'm not optimistic about it, given the history of UO.., time will tell, just hope it doesn't disappoint.

Cookie

CovenantX said:

   

Well, the real problem is the amount of mods an entire suit can achieve caps (both hard & soft caps) the part where we seem to disagree is that  Parry (imo -and it's been done in the past) should be nerfed, instead of rebalancing the entire loot system again.    *This does not include upgrading old reward items that currenty drop, finish the revamps of doom, look at which items people very rarely or never use, from peerless/replicas,  shadowguard, underwater etc. and buff the underused ones, but there has to be attention paid to what people actually like, and don't throw random mods on an item where none of them are good, because no one would use it still.

Parry has been nerfed before yes, a few times, and what did it achieve?

Nothing, it is more popular than ever.

Now you have to be asking why, and what did happen as a result of the nerfs.

What happened? Pure mages took a complete hit, and became unviable in pvp. So did anything without parry.

Why? Because as I sat at the gate on Test Centre, and explained to Bleak, mages cannot physically give up parry, they need it too much (Dismount and massive instant warrior damage ripped mages apart whilst completely stunned). So he did 100% the opposite and introduced some killer nerfs, that nerfed pure mages out of pvp, it was intended to dissuade mages from using parry, and they clung to parry like never before... Because they absolutely had to in order to survive. 

The real solution, is deal with the issues that are forcing mages to cling to parry. And this is coming from a pvper, who runs about 5 parry mages with his sons, who desperately wants to drop parry and pick up a more fun pure mage skill - be it scribe, alchemy, poison, spellweaving, whatever. I even want the same thing as you, AS A MAGE. But I cannot, I've tried it many times, the end result is a disaster, and every pvper out there is laughing at me for trying. I'm the awkward stubborn pvper who actually tries it.

CovenantX

pvp became much more fun when parry got nerfed, that's what happened.     I mean, are we just going to keep adding new properties like Sparks & Splintering, until the only  'dexers' that are relevant are ones that stack 40 damage ticks worth of DoTs on you?   sure as hell seems like the route we're on now, except it's not something only dexers have, evade mages (the meta) are using it, and it's naturally more effective when the rest of the template is already more effective without it.

    except now that you can easily reach 100+ dex without giving up HP or enough mana to make the difference, it's going to take a much more targeted approach to solve this problem.   pvp won't get any better until that changes..  third-party clients/cheats are a separate issue.

the only nerf to parry that did anything was causing it to require 80 dex before you could reforge and find +dex items in loot (not just jewelry like it used to be).   Dexers didn't become any better or worse with that parry nerf, but it took away the defensive bonuses of parry/evade from mages, which were the problem back then because they had something that made them better defensively & due to the reduced 'hits' taken, better offensively from fewer interruptions, and are currently the problem now... Shocker, i know, it's not like we haven't seen it before.

    The nerf (in combination with the powercreep at the time) made it impossible to get Parry on mages without sacrificing like a third of your mana-pool OR about 20-25% of your HP (from str to make up the dex, or a little of both)  that was the trade-off. there is no trade-off now   In fact, most mage templates haven't had meditation since global loot, so they've gotten better with that change as well..   I coudn't give a f^^k about how much mana for armor ignore spam a dexer can get, when they can't hit often enough for it to make me care about it lol.    That was my view before parry was 'free', now it's more like like "dexers suck, better play in a group or you might as well not play as a dexer".

you're the awkward/stubborn pvper who tries to drop parry but can't?   

everyone I know, can play without parry, but they have it because there aren't any better options, you get too much from it... but they sure as hell play dexer templates without parry... odd how that works isn't it?

I'm the only one I know who plays more characters (both dexers & mages) without parry than with it,     -Clearly you're not used to playing without parry, and at this point I don't blame you, I suspect not many people are used to playing without parry anymore... it's been broken long enough to have that affect.         -it's gotten so bad, that it'd probably have the literal same impact on pvp as nerfing sampires into the ground would have on pvm.... but both would be great changes, because the meta wouldn't so so f**king much better than everything else that otherwisw would exist.

Also,  Parry wasn't made better due to any particular expansion... but the introduction of items that allow the requirements for it to be easily reached, so much so that there's no penalty for having it, but it 'feels' like there's a massive penalty for Not having it.  -it's so good (broken) it's become something most have become reliant on.  even though dexers really didn't become much stronger with global loot the way tank-mages & mages have in general.

Cookie

you must be the only one who thought it became more fun.
i think losing pure mages was bit of a killer blow to pvp tbh.

except now that you can easily reach 100+ dex without giving up HP or enough mana to make the difference,

As a warrior you can yes, as a mage you cannot, mage armour lags quite a long way behind what warriors can achieve. And as I've said many times, warriors have far more use for all the free stats they are given. I cannot achieve enough mana on my mages, and yes indeed, warriors can achieve about as much mana as my mages can, this is wrong... What use is extra Dex to me? Extra mana to you, is fuelling more OP specials.

the only nerf to parry that did anything was causing it to require 80 dex before you could reforge and find +dex items in loot (not just jewelry like it used to be).   Dexers didn't become any better or worse with that parry nerf, but it took away the defensive bonuses of parry/evade from mages, which were the problem back then because they had something that made them better defensively & due to the reduced 'hits' taken, better offensively from fewer interruptions, and are currently the problem now... Shocker, i know, it's not like we haven't seen it before.

And you only conveniently forgot Mages lost Spell Damage...
Please stop with the 1 sided arguments.

everyone I know, can play without parry

Yeah right...

Name all these players who can play without Parry?
Name your characters without Parry?
I assure you, I can play way better than you without it.
To put my money where my mouth is.
Alea Iacta Est (|Spellweaver) runs without parry, so has Wraith (Inscription), Hades (Necro), and Asterial (Mystic).

CovenantX

Pure mages were all over the place when Parry was nerfed for mages the first time, wtf are you talking about lol

Cookie

CovenantX said:

Pure mages were all over the place when Parry was nerfed for mages the first time, wtf are you talking about lol

This has not happened in the last 30 years.
What dimension are you talking about? The Spidey Multiverse Cartoon dimension?
I suppose to be more fair, I ought to ask, which year, and which nerf are you thinking of?


Ok, another question - you nerf Parry - how do you propose to, and what do you expect will happen as a result?

CovenantX

Cookie said:

you must be the only one who thought it became more fun.
i think losing pure mages was bit of a killer blow to pvp tbh.

except now that you can easily reach 100+ dex without giving up HP or enough mana to make the difference,

As a warrior you can yes, as a mage you cannot, mage armour lags quite a long way behind what warriors can achieve. And as I've said many times, warriors have far more use for all the free stats they are given. I cannot achieve enough mana on my mages, and yes indeed, warriors can achieve about as much mana as my mages can, this is wrong... What use is extra Dex to me? Extra mana to you, is fuelling more OP specials.

the only nerf to parry that did anything was causing it to require 80 dex before you could reforge and find +dex items in loot (not just jewelry like it used to be).   Dexers didn't become any better or worse with that parry nerf, but it took away the defensive bonuses of parry/evade from mages, which were the problem back then because they had something that made them better defensively & due to the reduced 'hits' taken, better offensively from fewer interruptions, and are currently the problem now... Shocker, i know, it's not like we haven't seen it before.

And you only conveniently forgot Mages lost Spell Damage...
Please stop with the 1 sided arguments.

    Mages without Parry lost 5% spell damage (which i was against, btw.) and every other mage-template, gained 5%    ... the reason I 'conveniently forgot', is because Focus spec has nothing to do with why Parry is broken, (if it were properly fixed, we wouldn't be discussing it).  that had to do with focus spec, because the devs knew how trash parry-mages were, they knew they needed to be nerfed... but it wasn't the offense of the parry-mage that was the issue at that time, nor was it the issue ~18 years ago, the first time Parry was nerfed specifically for mages.  focus spec didn't even exist in those days, and there were several types of mage templates, a hell of a lot more than we have now.   

What do you think the devs' rationale was, when they made Parry count against Focus spec?

CovenantX

The only time in history parry was nerfed was in Publish 46.  *publish 43.  -46 had evasion cooldown/spec toggling while casting & tactics requirement for weapon specials.

and it was only nerfed by adding the stat requirements of 80 dex to gain the full benefit.

It was done in order to reduce the effectiveness of Mages using Parry, because they were too powerful, obviously, like they are today.

Cookie

CovenantX said:

The only time in history parry was nerfed was in Publish 46.

and it was only nerfed by adding the stat requirements of 80 dex to gain the full benefit.

It was done in order to reduce the effectiveness of Mages using Parry, because they were too powerful, obviously, like they are today.

So nerfing Parry had no effect?

Like I said it would have no effect?

Are you sure Parry is the problem?

Do we keep nerfing it?

Cookie

CovenantX said:

What do you think the devs' rationale was, when they made Parry count against Focus spec?

Their rationale was, exactly the same as you, they misunderstood the problem.

But, they proceeded anyway, because they wanted to FORCE mages to drop parry.

It failed.

Rather than fixing anything, they just tried to strong-arm mages out of using parry, as I have explained many many times, it could not work, because Mages had no other option, they needed to be given a fix, or another option.

CovenantX

Cookie said:

CovenantX said:

The only time in history parry was nerfed was in Publish 46.

and it was only nerfed by adding the stat requirements of 80 dex to gain the full benefit.

It was done in order to reduce the effectiveness of Mages using Parry, because they were too powerful, obviously, like they are today.

So nerfing Parry had no effect?

Like I said it would have no effect?

Are you sure Parry is the problem?

Do we keep nerfing it?

   it did have an effect, people dropped parry and there were all different mages, and dexers weren't obsolete, did you not play back then?  cause it looks like you weren't around back when it was an issue before.

  Parry only needs one nerf, it needs to not be usable at full capacity when paired with Magery.  that's it.      it worked before, but as I said, now dex requirement isn't a meaningful trade-off anymore, because of massive powercreep.. and the issue has returned.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned that back when global loot was coming out (when most of us were only using stratics).   I'm not some clairvoyant, but next to some of you it might seem that way.

similarly, I said adding Parry to focus spec isn't going to make people drop parry.  it's just going to make them do slightly less damage, and still be as close to unkillable (vs dexers) as they've always been.

Cookie

CovenantX said:

Cookie said:

CovenantX said:

The only time in history parry was nerfed was in Publish 46.

and it was only nerfed by adding the stat requirements of 80 dex to gain the full benefit.

It was done in order to reduce the effectiveness of Mages using Parry, because they were too powerful, obviously, like they are today.

So nerfing Parry had no effect?

Like I said it would have no effect?

Are you sure Parry is the problem?

Do we keep nerfing it?

   it did have an effect, people dropped parry and there were all different mages, and dexers weren't obsolete, did you not play back then?  cause it looks like you weren't around back when it was an issue before.

  Parry only needs one nerf, it needs to not be usable at full capacity when paired with Magery.  that's it.      it worked before, but as I said, now dex requirement isn't a meaningful trade-off anymore, because of massive powercreep.. and the issue has returned.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned that back when global loot was coming out (when most of us were only using stratics).   I'm not some clairvoyant, but next to some of you it might seem that way.

similarly, I said adding Parry to focus spec isn't going to make people drop parry.  it's just going to make them do slightly less damage, and still be as close to unkillable (vs dexers) as they've always been.

I was there.

I remember everyone quitting pvp, losing many long term pvp friends, and dexxers completely taking over and all mages quitting.

The balance has never been restored, and now we have the insult of warriors adding in magery because they can do so much, and using boks, and even calling themselves mages.

CovenantX

there's a big difference between your opinion (what you think happened) and what actually happened.     you count everything as a  dexer unless it's the template you're playing for some reason.

most everyone else, would say,  If it uses Magery+Eval-int, it's a Mage.   they can use swords, maces, axes, fencing, archery, or even wrestling... they choose swords because of the bokuto, but they're still healing, doing at least 50% or more of their damage with spells and can fall-back on a weapon for damage if they need to.

a dexer, in the traditional sense, is melee 'fighter' with no magery, often they don't even have any 'spell' offense.  everything relies on their Weapon hitting, and those were at massive disadvantages the last time this parry garbage happened, and it's exactly the same thing now.

people didn't quit because parry/evade was nerfed.. they "quit" because they didn't want to change their templates to add Tactics, the vast majority also came back and pvp was infinitely more diverse....  there were also a lot more people playing back then that weren't scripting every skill up, so it meant there was going to be downtime for them if they had to drop something for tactics,   today people just 'press play' for a couple hours and they're ready to go.   big difference, and not a good one.

Hell, even the majority of Dexers didn't have tactics before it was required for special moves.     out of my 30 characters (pvp) I only had 2 with tactics at the time,  I know a couple people in my guild quit from publish 46 (3 publishes after Parry was nerfed),  never heard of anyone quitting when evade-mages weren't "good" anymore though, you'd be the first I've seen mention that.

   there were still Lots of bokuto mages after parry didn't work because only dexers had 80 dex at the time, they just couldn't evade reliably, and they were still the best in terms of burst damage after the nerf, and they'd continue to be today if parry was nerfed again for them now.bok mages they just wouldn't be blocking 20-30% more incoming dexer attacks, and evading enough damage to not die in 3+ player sync dumps (like literally every non-parry mage template would do if they weren't phased on of relevancy)

 (and pvp was killed off for a month or so with publish 46 (As I said earlier in the thread) not related to Parry at all btw, it was the tactics requirement, because that affected everyone for the most part.

loop

Genuine question: What's the purpose of PVP in UO today? Like, what exactly is at stake? Isn't the "real" PVP on private shards anyway?

I'm legitimately ignorant here. The only thing I know about PVP today is what I see in general chat on Atlantic.The devs could spend the next several years turning knobs to adjust this or that, but if it's all just slapping contests, is it really worth it?

CovenantX

loop said:

Genuine question: What's the purpose of PVP in UO today? Like, what exactly is at stake? Isn't the "real" PVP on private shards anyway?

I'm legitimately ignorant here. The only thing I know about PVP today is what I see in general chat on Atlantic.The devs could spend the next several years turning knobs to adjust this or that, but if it's all just slapping contests, is it really worth it?

   just for "fun" (if that's what you call today's UO-pvp)   -it was fun when it was more balanced and diverse as far as templates used in pvp, with very few people scripting potions & trapped boxes.

  I'd say that it would be worth it for the devs to make a few changes to pvp.  but they've gotta stop adding things that undo previous 'fixes', so that the same problems keep re-appearing..at least it'll spark interest and bring people back until they start craving something new (which will happen regardless, but it lasts longer when it's done right)

  by the same token,  the devs could spend the next several years adding content & things to any aspect of the game, if they do nothing to curb cheating, what's the point of it?   anyone can download the latest scripting program and do whatever they want in-game while they do something else irl.

  

Mariah

Guys, an interesting discussion, but somewhat off the topic of the thread. Could you maybe continue elsewhere? Make a new thread if you want to.

Lord_Frodo

UOR Renaissance  Without it UO would have died and it kept me playing

Age of DODO was the worse because it changed UO into an item based system.