Publish 117 - PvP Updates Discussion
in Test Center
For discussing PvP Updates in TC1. Please keep commentary specific to the changes made. Changes not specifically outlined in the publish notes are not appropriate for discussion in this thread. This will help focus feedback while not getting off topic of what is currently at hand. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation and testing assistance!
Comments
I'm not going to go onto TC1, because it does not do me much good, I'm not good at testing, I'm a player, I need to see and feel it ingame against real players. So I will only know for real, when it is implemented.
In the meantime however, my thoughts on what you have done.
-Fixed an issue where Shuriken & Darts could bypass the throw timer.
Great - if it does what it says on the tin, it is a fix.
-Removed the ability to evade damage for oneself.
-Explosion potions now display an animation when targeting.
Great - again, if it does what it says on the tin, it is a fix.
-Casting teleport from a ring now inflicts a 1-second paralysis effect.
This is helpful to quality of pvp.
Now for the critical one. As Evasion in certain combinations is creating a boring Meta.
-Increased diminishing returns for Evasion mechanics with each successful parry in PvP.
-The following spells and potions now apply an additional diminishing returns debuff against Evasion in PvP:
- Necromancy Spells: Wither, Poison Strike.
- Magery Spells: Meteor Swarm, Chain Lightning, Earthquake, Fire Field, Poison Field.
- Mysticism Spells: Hail Storm, Nether Cyclone, Nether Blast.
- Spellweaving Spells: Wildfire, Essence of Wind, Thunderstorm.
- Potions: Explosion, Conflagration, Supernova.
Thoughts on this. I posted them in Discord, I will post them here.What they have done there is interesting.
Basically, for all area affect spells/potions, they have added a debuff against evasion, clearly meant to reduce the power of evasion a bit.
For the Necro - I think poison strike is a great option, great spell anyway, and will now have the added bonus of reducing Evasion power.
For the alchemists, all those options are good, those potions are used.
For the mage and mystic - none of those options are great, none of them are really used in pvp naturally.
Spellweavers use Thunderstorm naturally, so Spellweavers gain, although it has huge mana cost.
So out of that list, in order, Necros, Alchemists, Spellweavers, Mages, Mystics stand to gain, in that order, by having an area affect ability to give a diminishing returns debuff to Evasion opponents.
I think Necros are a winner there - Poison Strike is an instant cast, although everyone can use Potions.
I think Mages and Mystics barely stand to gain, as their area effect spells take too long to cast in pvp for them to be able to use them in the relevant situation - remember the opponent is usually running away at the point of Evasion going off.
I think the feeling of some of us in Discord was - it is a good start, but we had hoped to see more.
But I'm glad something has been done, and lets see how this works - I really believe Pure Mages need more.
Evasion has been a thorn in pvp since it came out. We're on like the 7th+ adjustment. Why not just do a set damage number like attunement and move on?
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Just to mention one thing, as a mere example, the ability to "synchronize" spells onto the same one target, makes it hardly possible for that target to survive the attack... and this is only one example...
To my opinion, any changes that were to not do something about the ability of UO players to use unauthorized Third Party applications to provide significative advantages in PvP, would have a hard time to really achieve significant balancing in PvP.
At least, that is how I see it.
Evasion could use a slight change but i dont think it needs to be changed drastically for multiple reasons. 1. There is a counter to evasion Disarm. 2. It allows smaller groups of pvpers to fight larger groups of pvpers otherwise the larger groups will prevail at most fights. 3 The spell has been nerfed multiple times from the CD timer to the amount of damage/hits evaded soon enough the spell will become useless if it continues to be changed. You could make evasion scale off real bushido/parry instead of skill increase also as a small nerf to help.
Additionally the spells/potions that have been added to the diminishing returns list should be adjusted. Thunderstorm in particular can be casted at 4/6 casting it is also a undisruptable cast with a huge area effect and can be spammed theres no logical reason this spell should be apart of the list.
The dart nerf is very nice. There is no counterplay to someone spamming dp darts and shrukiens with little to no cooldown timer.
Lastly we need to address the new Waki that was released from the event Storm Lord's Steel.
This waki has the over cap lightning at 80% additionally it was given 30 sparks. Sparks when introduced was not supposed to activate on any weapon specials. Currently it is activating on Frienzied Whirlwind. This needs to be adjusted asap. You have this weapon now doing 4 different things on 1 hit. 1. You get the waki slow from the special. 2. You are getting massive damage from the activation of sparks and whirlwind damage. 3. You are getting a Energy based bleed that scales for more damage when someone is cursed. 4. You are getting a large chunk of mana back. This weapon is by far currently the best/ most op weapon being used right now.
This waki has the over cap lightning at 80% additionally it was given 30 sparks. Sparks when introduced was not supposed to activate on any weapon specials. Currently it is activating on Frienzied Whirlwind. This needs to be adjusted asap. You have this weapon now doing 4 different things on 1 hit.
1. Fixed an issue where Shuriken & Darts could bypass the throw timer.- Good that was clearly broken.
2.Removed the ability to evade damage for oneself- This seems oddly targeted at explosion pots being evaded. I think you should be able to evade damage on yourself (and add to DR). It is not easy to pull off and also there is risk vs reward on doing that move. It is great when someone evades. Gets hit with a para shot and then evades the tick from their box so they have to sit through it. Might want to rethink this change.
3.Explosion potions now display an animation when targeting- Add some sort of animation for when they start the timer. Most people click them in their backpack and let them blowup on themselves and you won't know it is coming until they explode. Waiting for them to click a target does not help that issue.
4. Casting teleport from a ring now inflicts a 1-second paralysis effect. The rings should be at 0 fc speed. Perhaps let them be cast at the FC level of whoever is using the ring, but base should be 0.
5.Increased diminishing returns for Evasion mechanics with each successful parry in PvP- Impossible to comment on this as it has never been properly explained how it is supposed to work. Last time the devs said they were nerfing evasion with DR absolutely nothing changed. We need to know how it works. Such as: is there a maximum amount of evades someone can get on one evasion? 2. Is there a maximum amount of damage total that evasion can soak up? 3. What is the calculation for DR after each evade and how does each spell affect it? Without knowing that- it is useless to try to test it to see if it is working as intended.
Explosion potion: They seemed to be fine. The new animation should give chances for counter play. Evasion not proc'ing on self inflicted damage makes this a much more risky maneuver as well. I think this is a good change and fine where it's at.
Tele Rings: The 1 second paralysis might be enough to discourage people from using them but I'm not 100% sold. I think legacy items that are no longer obtainable and have potentially large effects in PvP shouldn't have a place. I think leaving it at 1 second is fine but it needs to be interruptible so we have some ability for counter play. If it being interruptible is too difficult a change to code, a much longer cast time, like 3 seconds as Lynk posted above will make the risk of using them significant enough to discourage their ubiquitous use.
Poison Shurikens/Darts: I think the 5 seconds between each dart/shuriken throw is a move in the right direction. I noticed though that if you use a dart/shuriken, it prevents you from using another dart/shuriken from that same fukiya/belt indefinitely unless you unload/reload that fukiya/belt. To me that feels like a bug, not a feature. If it is a feature the only thing I see it accomplishing is making builds that use Shurikens/Darts so cumbersome to play that only those who automate part of the process will be able to effectively use it. To address this I suggest leaving the 5 seconds between throws of each dart/shuriken but removing any penalties associated with having to unload/reload each fukiya/belt after one use.
Evasion: I was worried when I read the patch notes that maybe it was too much of a nerf but after testing it I think it's in an ok place where it's at on the test center. If I received a spell dump from a group of casters and they used single target spells as is common in PvP today, it didn't feel much different than how it feels on live. I'd see 5, 6, 7 evades sometimes depending on RNG. If the casters mixed in area spells like hail storm, chain lightning, supernova, thunderstorm or wind I would usually see 3 evades, occasionally only 2, occasionally 4. This felt like it would save you if you were aware and running away from the spell dump but it probably wouldn't save you if it was like 10 people dumping on you or you stood around and ate multiple spells from the same spell dump. If its too much of a nerf, it's barely too much and just needs to be toned down a little.
Ok, that covers the stuff currently on the patch notes for the Test Center but I do want to mention a couple things for a couple different reasons.
Storm Lords Steel: The last PvP discussion thread took place from Sep 2023 to Dec 2023. That didn't leave a lot of time to comment on Storm Lords Steel. It hadn't had enough time to make it's impact. That being said, it's way out of line with other weapons. It's single target damage potential is as high as builds that stack tactics, anatomy, damage increase and use two handed weapons. For how few points you have to invest to get that damage and the fact that it's coming from a one handed weapon, it needs to be nerfed. That doesn't even mention the fact that it has a bleed effect tacked on the end or the fact that it returns a lot of mana to the user. I think two things need to happen with this weapon. The first is that sparks needs to not proc on weapon specials as it currently does. The second is it needs to not return mana, at least not nearly as much mana.
Ward Removal Talismans: I was taking a break from the game during the last PvP discussion thread from Sep 2023 to Dec 2023 or I would have definitely mentioned this. These items are broken and furthermore have no place in PvP. They shouldn't be able to be used on players. You don't need any skill to equip/use them. You are only limited by how many you can carry. They remove SIX buffs. They can be used while moving. You can use it on someone without flagging them. No line of sight check is performed during use so you can ward remove someone in their house. You can ward remove a blue in guard zone and not turn grey/get guard whacked. The only range check performed is that the player is registered on your screen so 24 tiles away. They are cumbersome to use so there is a bias towards people who automate their use. In other words, completely busted and very overpowered in PvP. That being said Spellweaving buffs (Mana Shield, Gift of Renewal, Attunement) are very powerful defensive tools and one of the only effective counters are ward removal talismans. So I feel like a change with Ward Removal Talismans needs to come with either a nerf to Spellweaving buffs akin to the evasion changes OR a significant buff to Mysticism's Purge Magic to make it closer in functionality to what ward removal talismans are doing so we have counter play. Currently Ward Removal Talismans remove 6 wards and after you use the item on a player, another Ward Removal Talisman cannot be used on that player again for 20 seconds. Currently Mysticism's Purge Magic has a chance to remove 1 ward and the person who got purged has an immunity of 6 seconds provided he has Max Resisting Spells and the caster has Max Mysticism/Focus. I suggest having Purge Magic be a 7th or 8th tier spell with cast times and mana costs appropriate for that tier of spell but giving it the ability to remove 6 wards and putting a 30 second immunity on the player it was cast on.
ICQ# 478 633 659
ICQ# 478 633 659
I think change to tele rings will help aid the nonsense. I think something that should be looked at is reverting the riding swipe nerf that happened a few years ago. Obviously intended to be able to be toggled while riding.. Hence Riding swipe. I think this will help combat the teleport ring dismount from archers.
I also concur the waki just needs to be tuned a bit. Not sure if it was intended to be able to be imbued fully to what it is. Nice to have a weapon other than a bokuto as a melee character that can deal a good amount of damage though. maybe look at ability to add spell channeling with imbuing property weight of sparks?
I disagree with ward removal talismans needing nerfed. Having to sacrifice stats of talisman(HCI, DCI, ETC.) to do this. It is an effective way to combat the hyrbid templates using so many buffs to maintain parry chances, potion buffs to maintain max stats, etc. Everything removed from this can be easily reapplied.
All in all the first round of new changes appear to look good, I just hope this isn't the ONLY changes happening in pub 117. Been quite a few years for any changes, and if some hotfixes to a few things are the highlight of this publish it will be quite discouraging to many people.
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Who ever 1v1'nd?
Order vs Chaos.
Factions.
Champion Spawns.
Harrowers.
Vice vs Virtue.
All of the most meaningful and fun PvP, has been group PvP.
Yes the concept of 1v1 is nice, for sure. But where does it really fit in?
The Devs asked a long time ago - how should PvP be balanced, and the response was, for group play.
It is hurting PvPers, it was always going to hurt PvPers.
We need the gear, we need to move it around.
I would say priorities, or the voices they listen to, have a different agenda.
I personally, also do not want the EM items touched, as I profit (ingame) from that concept, and like the fact Rares can be moved around to Collectors, but the same concept should hold true for PvPers.
ICQ# 478 633 659
ICQ# 478 633 659
ICQ# 478 633 659