People are losing it over changes in pub 100 is this always so dramatic?

crunchnasty

I haven't been around for a long time. Seems like a lot of people are not happy with the tamer "nerf" and added difficulty of shadowguard. I hear a lot of "all you will ever see now is Sampires." 

Will be interesting to see the next round of publish 100

Pawain

Who was complaining about players going to shadowguard and having fun?  The prices on the items has not dropped so there must not be an overabundance of them.  

They are taking something away that was fun for many players.

Pets are useless in PvP, Doom, now shadowguard.

Welcome to Sampires online.

Want to hear crying?  Do something that changes the status quo of PvP.

Kronal

Pawain said:

Who was complaining about players going to shadowguard and having fun?  The prices on the items has not dropped so there must not be an overabundance of them.  

They are taking something away that was fun for many players.

Pets are useless in PvP, Doom, now shadowguard.

Welcome to Sampires online.

Want to hear crying?  Do something that changes the status quo of PvP.

Couldn't have said it better.  So disgusted with what the have done to pets since the buffed them.  Just to make them second tier again.

drcossack

Pawain said:

Who was complaining about players going to shadowguard and having fun?  The prices on the items has not dropped so there must not be an overabundance of them.  

They are taking something away that was fun for many players.

Pets are useless in PvP, Doom, now shadowguard.

Welcome to Sampires online.

Want to hear crying?  Do something that changes the status quo of PvP.

do you even know why everyone used Tamers in Shadowguard?  It's not because of how powerful the pets were.

You say tamers are useless in Doom?  What are you basing this on, how long it takes for an army of tamers to kill a few Dark Fathers?  Pets can do ALL of the rooms without any problems.  I can go down there and record my 3 tamers doing the rooms for you if you want (changing pets/tamers based on what room I'm in.)  It's the Dark Father they have issues with, because of the spawn and its leash.  If it weren't for the leash, it would be VERY easy for a large # of pets, since the revamp, to annihilate the Dark Father.

Yeah, Sampires will do Doom faster...but can you give me a reason why they shouldn't?  They have ALWAYS been more powerful than pets.

Why is it such a big deal that tamers aren't the ultimate pvm template (when they aren't that anyway?)  Even with the pet enhancements from the revamp, they are, at best, complimentary to what an actual player can do.  If there's a lot of spawn summoned, like in Doom, it's nice having a pet to tank while a sampire takes out all of the mobs.  Instead of complaining, perhaps you should rethink the group composition you use (so it's not all tamers) and incorporate a sampire or two.  You'd be surprised at how much easier those fights you had trouble with before actually end up being.

Pawain

drcossack said:

Pawain said:

Who was complaining about players going to shadowguard and having fun?  The prices on the items has not dropped so there must not be an overabundance of them.  

They are taking something away that was fun for many players.

Pets are useless in PvP, Doom, now shadowguard.

Welcome to Sampires online.

Want to hear crying?  Do something that changes the status quo of PvP.

do you even know why everyone used Tamers in Shadowguard?  It's not because of how powerful the pets were.

You say tamers are useless in Doom?  What are you basing this on, how long it takes for an army of tamers to kill a few Dark Fathers?  Pets can do ALL of the rooms without any problems.  I can go down there and record my 3 tamers doing the rooms for you if you want (changing pets/tamers based on what room I'm in.)  It's the Dark Father they have issues with, because of the spawn and its leash.  If it weren't for the leash, it would be VERY easy for a large # of pets, since the revamp, to annihilate the Dark Father.

Yeah, Sampires will do Doom faster...but can you give me a reason why they shouldn't?  They have ALWAYS been more powerful than pets.

Why is it such a big deal that tamers aren't the ultimate pvm template (when they aren't that anyway?)  Even with the pet enhancements from the revamp, they are, at best, complimentary to what an actual player can do.  If there's a lot of spawn summoned, like in Doom, it's nice having a pet to tank while a sampire takes out all of the mobs.  Instead of complaining, perhaps you should rethink the group composition you use (so it's not all tamers) and incorporate a sampire or two.  You'd be surprised at how much easier those fights you had trouble with before actually end up being.

So we should just play templates that you approve of?

Its PvM who gives a crap if someone can kill something with their tinkers golem.

drcossack

Pawain said:

So we should just play templates that you approve of?

Its PvM who gives a crap if someone can kill something with their tinkers golem.

if that's all you got out of my post (and my prior comments on the subject ingame), there's really no more reason for me to discuss this with you.

Bilbo

AMEN @Pawain

Pawain

Sounds like they have reduced the spawn some. 

We take new players there and stay partied with them so they can pick up the gold and go through the loot.  Just because players who have done it a lot can do it on TC does not mean everyone can deal with the spawn.  The ones who have tested it have built pets and have done it many times.  

Before you say new players shouldn't be able to finish a quest system that took them a couple of hours to complete the prerequisites.  A single sampire can still do the whole encounter in 20 minutes.  I am just asking for template equality.  Ill even settle for 40 min on a group of tamers. (what we have now)

I thought we were supposed to show people how fun the game is with there own play style. Winning is fun.  

Now, I should tell them do make a Sampire and do it Solo because as many here have said,  It is more efficient.

That's all i have to say on this until it goes live.

drcossack

Pawain said:

Sounds like they have reduced the spawn some. 

We take new players there and stay partied with them so they can pick up the gold and go through the loot.  Just because players who have done it a lot can do it on TC does not mean everyone can deal with the spawn.  The ones who have tested it have built pets and have done it many times.  

Before you say new players shouldn't be able to finish a quest system that took them a couple of hours to complete the prerequisites.  A single sampire can still do the whole encounter in 20 minutes.  I am just asking for template equality.  Ill even settle for 40 min on a group of tamers. (what we have now)

I thought we were supposed to show people how fun the game is with there own play style. Winning is fun.  

Now, I should tell them do make a Sampire and do it Solo because as many here have said,  It is more efficient.

That's all i have to say on this until it goes live.

You have done Doom with a group of tamers.  You know how long it took on the Dark Fathers, how many times players died, how many times pets died, and the templates that were used to get it done (which your group of tamers was failing miserably at): Two dexers.

One of my posts in the Pub 100 thread on Stratics:

"For a large group of tamers (or even one, if they're with sampires), that means more DF, more spawn, and more chaos because pets follow whatever DF they're attacking. If only one has been aggro'd, there's a good chance that the others will flag on the pet after the leash, causing all hell to break loose. THAT is why you do not use tamers on the Dark Father. Sampires can control how many DF's they fight at once (and prevent spawn from getting out of hand by killing it quickly), instead of causing massive chaos, large amounts of spawn, and repeated player/pet deaths.

It's the same in Shadowguard. I didn't know how much spawn I would generate, but I knew in advance not to let it get out of hand, and adjusted my tactics accordingly. I just saw Virtuebane, and it was rough - it's not something you'd be able to do if multi-clienting by yourself."

Where have I said people aren't supposed to play how they want?  I haven't; that should be clearly evident in the fact that I have multiple templates to do content with: multiple tamers, 2 mystic/weaving mages (one of which can go Necro/Weaver if I so choose), sampire/whammy, thrower, etc.  But even if you DO play how you want, there comes a point where you have to realize that your "playstyle" isn't working for that specific encounter, and that you should use something that's better geared towards the encounter.  Doom is one such example of that.  To put it another way: Would you take a Sampire to Lady Mel?  I mean, you CAN, and you'll get loot rights for it with a Fey Slayer, but with her Aura of Nausea ability, you lose a lot of your effectiveness because of the HCI and SSI penalties.

With the current iteration of Shadowguard on TC, half of it (Ozymandias and Anon, who were jokes beforehand) are still easy.  Virtuebane requires a bit more effort, and it's not something I can do with 3 clients (well, for right now, anyway.  I can figure it out easily enough), and Juo'nar is the hardest for tamers.  But there are things you can do to mitigate Juo'nar, such as bringing a Sampire to deal with the spawn.  There are other methods you can use, but I'll let you discover that on your own; all you have to do is go over to Test Center and figure it out.

Violet

drcossack said:

Pawain said:

We take new players there and stay partied with them so they can pick up the gold and go through the loot.  Just because players who have done it a lot can do it on TC does not mean everyone can deal with the spawn.  The ones who have tested it have built pets and have done it many times.  

You have done Doom with a group of tamers.  You know how long it took on the Dark Fathers, how many times players died, how many times pets died, and the templates that were used to get it done (which your group of tamers was failing miserably at): Two dexers.

One of my posts in the Pub 100 thread on Stratics:

"For a large group of tamers (or even one, if they're with sampires), that means more DF, more spawn, and more chaos because pets follow whatever DF they're attacking. If only one has been aggro'd, there's a good chance that the others will flag on the pet after the leash, causing all hell to break loose. THAT is why you do not use tamers on the Dark Father. Sampires can control how many DF's they fight at once (and prevent spawn from getting out of hand by killing it quickly), instead of causing massive chaos, large amounts of spawn, and repeated player/pet deaths.

But if he goes to test center then he cannot complain.  

Btw a few more encounters most Sampires stay away from: Corgul, Scalis, Exodus, Interred Grizzle.  What do I see there? Tamers!

As for Dark Father, I will have to disagree with Drcossack slightly.  Yeah if you can not bring your tamer there, it's probably easier.  My tamer(s) (other than old pvp characters and crafters) is the only character(s) I play, so I have to adjust my tactics to what I am fighting.  I do dark father with my Sampire partner.  If you are quick with the fingers, you can grab your pet and call it back before it aggros a second.  If both are pulled leash both, reset and start over, but that hasn't happened often. We kill a dark father in 3-5 minutes.

I did something some might think is crazy the other day.  I took a group of 7 tamers and 1 warrior to Travesty.  3 of them were rather newly returned players and both of the newly returned tamers had discord.  They were both able to participate, get looking rights and did not allow Travesty to discord the players or the pets.  It's all about adjusting the tactics and telling the raid what is expected of them and killed her in 5-7 minutes each time.

Same goes for Shadowguard.  I have to say, I almost don't believe returning players should be thrown right in the only current end game encounter.  That's a way to get them bored of the game quickly.  But as long as a returning player understands their role in the end encounter, they should be able to complete it with a knowledgeable person or two or three or 9.  But if more people had tried it out on Test Center they would understand that.

I do not get why so many UO players get so set in their ways to do things.  Why do things the hard way when a slight tweak or two can turn into an easy way. (And I don't mean just take a Sampire, I mean adjust the tamer's playstyle) 

SwordofExcalibur

Every MMO has this debate on job/class/template domination.

It's a problem with every MMO.

Statements like: "Yeah, Sampires will do Doom faster...but can you give me a reason why they shouldn't?  They have ALWAYS been more powerful than pets," are the reason why arguements start lol.

Eh, I mean, every MMO I've played gives improvements to a job/class/temp.  When the Devs realize the over-did things, they nerf 'em.

It happens.  People get upset and cry about it.  

I just think it is foolish to say one class should dominate all others.  Every class should have some equal footing, WHILE having strengths in some areas and weaknesses in others.

Ah, these debates are as old as time.

(Meanwhile, I'm sitting here trying to skill a pet and getting aggro stolen from me by a macroing-bot.  Let's start a pity-party! haha)

McDougle

they need to make a dungeon where you need multi classes in room A. you need a thief for finding and disarming traps (magic resistant ones:) ) the next room only a bard can get you through etc etc would do a lot to encourage group play..

Blargety

McDougle said:

they need to make a dungeon where you need multi classes in room A. you need a thief for finding and disarming traps (magic resistant ones:) ) the next room only a bard can get you through etc etc would do a lot to encourage group play..

How dare you ask for group play! Every template needs to be able to solo everything. </sarcasm> 

IMO, you are correct. The idea of everything needing to be a soloable encounter is one of the banes of the MMO industry. I like interesting and difficult mechanics that encourage group play. 

+1 to this guy. 

Petra_Fyde

In my experience this is something of a storm in a tea-cup. The group I regularly hunt with have done Shadowguard since the publish. We did it with the same characters we usually use, in the same way as we usually do it. Then afterward we gathered in the foyer and wondered what all the fuss was about. There was no appreciable difference for us.