Dear Kyronix, nobody likes fiendish calling AI. It takes otherwise fun encounters and turns them

into tedious frustration-fests. Why do you hate fun?

I mean the idea of a strong boss summoning minions is great, but it doesnt have to summon enough minions to overrun a small nation. it's a bit over the top. and by a bit i mean my allnames macro makes my PC catch on fire.
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Comments

  • KHANKHAN Posts: 394
    @Kyronix I counted 57 spawn corpses at one point (after some had already disappeared), while there as part of a 2 man team. I sure hope it doesn't scale the spawn according to the number of players!!!!
    If you sell UO items for R.L. $$$, you need to quit playing UO , and get a BETTER R.L. JOB!
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 951Dev
    edited May 2018
    I don't hate fun.  I'll take your hyperbole in jest and try to offer some insight...

    Boss mobs quickly become overhwhelmed by player pets.  This was true before the Pet Revamp,and given the level of power a pet can reach now, is even more true.  Take a look at any EM event, and you will find even the most beefed up, insanely statted boss mob getting demolished by multiple attacking pets.  They generally don't stand a chance.

    With regard to Shadowguard, it currently provides some of, if not the, highest end loot in the world.  The bosses in Shadowguard (and elsewhere) employ a number of AIs to make the fights dynamic and challenging, one of which is fiendish calling.  Previously, this AI had an issue where it would not proc from pet damage.  This lead to a situation where the bosses in the Shadowguard finale could become trapped (for the most part, sans for teleportation abilities) by attacking pets and stand no chance against the onslaught.  The owners would simply need to stand in the back and spam heal.  

    With the change to Fiendish Calling, pet damage will now have a chance to proc fiendish calling like all other damage classes.  It is now necessary to control accessory spawn while making sound tactical decisions on how you deal with the added threat.  Do you take a pet that deals more attacks but with less damage, or do you take the howitzer that fires slowly but deadly - and thusly procs less?  How will you structure your party to dispatch accessory minions and heal your tanks?  Will your pocket bard hang back and regenerate your life with enchanting songs while provoking minions to attack one another?  Will your front line fighters cross heal and stand toe-to-toe with even the deadliest monsters?  

    That all being said, we put changes such as this on TC for feedback, and given the nature of fiendish calling, we will be evaluating it's performance and adjusting to achieve the following goals, 

    • Balancing the frequency of the AI executing based on the number of hits a standard boss takes.
    • Allowing adequate cooldown for accessory spawn to be dispatched before another wave is summoned.
    • Ensuring all summons can be targeted by barding abilities.
    • Evaluating the health of summons as compared to their normal templates (this happens now, where summons have a fraction of the health of their normal counterparts).  

    See you on TC!
  • KHANKHAN Posts: 394
    @Kyronix Thanks for the feedback. Your comment "Ensuring all summons can be targeted by barding abilities" Would be helpful. As it stands now, I know that some of the "summons" cannot be barded. But I can't remember which ones (I'm thinking the Ninjas and Skeletal Dragons for starters). Sorry.
    If you sell UO items for R.L. $$$, you need to quit playing UO , and get a BETTER R.L. JOB!
  • North_LSNorth_LS Posts: 99
    @Kyronix it was definitely in jest - and i actually do like the idea of it. my problem is when it becomes excessive to the point where you just want to give up. Doom/DF gets like that. Group of tamers? Manageable, provided you control the adds. Sampire? Manageable (in a fraction of the time the tamers can do it). Tamer(s) and a sampire? complete and total chaos for the tamers. theyr'e gonna die. A lot. The spawn just comes too fast and too heavy given the nature of sampire / dexer damage. Their panicked frenzy may or may not kill the sampire too.

    It definitely spices things up and makes the encounter more interesting with the spawn adds. It's good to have to make tactical decisions as the encounter develops in order to be successful. It's also important to remember that putting together an ideal hunting group of 4-5 different classes isn't always possible on a lot of shards. I appreciate that you're keeping an eye on TC1 and open to revising as necessary though - I'm just worried that roof will turn into another DF-like encounter that nobody really wants to do anymore.
  • VioletViolet Posts: 311
    edited May 2018
    Kyronix said:
    I don't hate fun.  I'll take your hyperbole in jest and try to offer some insight...

    Boss mobs quickly become overhwhelmed by player pets.  This was true before the Pet Revamp,and given the level of power a pet can reach now, is even more true.  Take a look at any EM event, and you will find even the most beefed up, insanely statted boss mob getting demolished by multiple attacking pets.  They generally don't stand a chance
    I look forward to testing this tonight.  However a couple things:

    regarding em mobs... majority of the events I've been to the past year have been valorite elemental... it's not the pets taking them down..... it's the armies of (macroed) throwers  :o as a tamer mage this has been more than frustrating at events.

    Kyronix said:

    With the change to Fiendish Calling, pet damage will now have a chance to proc fiendish calling like all other damage classes.  It is now necessary to control accessory spawn while making sound tactical decisions on how you deal with the added threat.  Do you take a pet that deals more attacks but with less damage, or do you take the howitzer that fires slowly but deadly - and thusly procs less?  

    Except that's not really the reality of pets in game.  All properly trained pets will have 150 stam, they will all hit the same speed.  All properly trained pets will have 700 str so melee hit damage is not the variable, other than resists and the exception of the few overlapped str animals in game. The variable then becomes their magical ability and their innate abilities.  This is yet another nail in the coffin to Magery or true magic pets.  They already are at a disadvantage due to their intensity value because magery has too high of an intensity cost for what it gives (I'm open to debating the costs of magics with you and how things like healing need a high intensity cost~). Now further so due to the negative effect it will have on the spawn due to its more rapid small hits.  Something like the greater dragon, with magic and bleed could be crippling, yet a lot of tamers still use these due to not understanding the taming system.

    Based on your howitzer statement and It being based on number of hits, that makes it a very narrow pet spec you will bring to the roof (but it's one I have already used).  It will be nice to tell mages vollems to gtfo though and the cu too~. 

    Perhaps something more in alignment with the anon/flesh renderer menchanic where it procs after a certain amount of damage done.



  • SyncrosSyncros Posts: 116
    As a returned player I see why roof is getting fixed and tamers just will have to suck it up.  Some encounters just shouldnt be solo'd and so its good to bring a group, not to mention its faster usually as well.  

    EM boss fights are ok aside from the mob that does AoE DP?  Thats prob the most annoying thing going on during those fights, its like cast greater cure then greater heal and repeat and hope the lag doesnt mess your spells up too much and you die.  (as a tamer there)

    Client needs some sorely needed optimizations as well. A newer pc shouldnt really be having issues when hitting all names or doing other things.   
  • KronalKronal Posts: 81
    Syncros said:
    As a returned player I see why roof is getting fixed and tamers just will have to suck it up.  Some encounters just shouldnt be solo'd and so its good to bring a group, not to mention its faster usually as well.  

    EM boss fights are ok aside from the mob that does AoE DP?  Thats prob the most annoying thing going on during those fights, its like cast greater cure then greater heal and repeat and hope the lag doesnt mess your spells up too much and you die.  (as a tamer there)

    Client needs some sorely needed optimizations as well. A newer pc shouldnt really be having issues when hitting all names or doing other things.   
    Odd how you claim tamers solo it yet no one has come forward to say they do.  You know why?  Because it's not doable.
  • KhyroKhyro Posts: 200
    edited May 2018
    I agree that there should be damage thresholds that have a chance to proc Fiendish Calling, instead of every hit. This would balance the encounters around any group comp and not require you to run a very specific combo to be the most efficient. I believe that is the balance you are looking for in content @Kyronix. People would still need to put in thought to how they play, but it would allow a more diverse set of specs to participate.

    Let's look at an example encounter:

    1. Fiendish Calling has a chance to trigger on any damage
    So in this case, you are penalized for bringing a variety of things to the encounter:
    • Any weapon with an On-Hit effect
    • Any pet with Bleed
    • Mages casting summons
    • Any Damage-over-Time spells
    • Newer players with non-perfect gear (they do less damage)
    Having Fiendish Calling trigger on any damage done is what currently leads to the very streaky spawn of adds. I'm not sure what the current safeguard is for a FC trigger, but I know I've seen 3+ back to back triggers in as many seconds. 

    This often leads to VERY chaotic fights, with many deaths, and people generally feeling extremely frustrated and demoralized. They can plan and prepare all they want, but when it is 100% RNG based, there is only so much you can do.

    2. Fiendish Calling has a chance to trigger after X amount of damage
    In this case, you can not only directly control how difficult the encounter should be by adjusting for X in the formula, but you also make it possible for a wider variety of players to participate in the content without having perfect specs.

    For instance, if you have FC trigger (either a % chance, or guaranteed) after every 500 damage received, the group can correctly anticipate the adds better and be prepared to deal with them. This would also not penalize pets with Bleed, weapons with on-hit effects, mage summons, newer/lesser geared player, or other smaller damage, as it all just adds to the counter for the next FC proc.

    This would also give you great control over how difficult encounters could be. Adjust X to every 200 damage on encounters you want to be very difficult, and give the boss 10000 health. Now you know the group should receive 50 FC procs in the encounter. You can adjust it to every 1000 health for bosses intended to be easier, and now you know the group only has to deal with ~10 FC procs for that boss (assuming 10000 health).

    I understand that RNG adds an element of suspense and on-your-toes thinking to encounters, but I really feel there needs to be a balance between RNG and predictability. 

    https://www.uo-cah.com
    Home of the Pet Intensity Calculator, Pet Planner, Trainable Animal Bestiary, and other Tools, Guides, and Information. 

  • PawainPawain Posts: 4,888
    edited May 2018
    Kyronix said:
    I don't hate fun.  I'll take your hyperbole in jest and try to offer some insight...

    Boss mobs quickly become overhwhelmed by player pets.  This was true before the Pet Revamp,and given the level of power a pet can reach now, is even more true.  Take a look at any EM event, and you will find even the most beefed up, insanely statted boss mob getting demolished by multiple attacking pets.  They generally don't stand a chance.

    With regard to Shadowguard, it currently provides some of, if not the, highest end loot in the world.  The bosses in Shadowguard (and elsewhere) employ a number of AIs to make the fights dynamic and challenging, one of which is fiendish calling.  Previously, this AI had an issue where it would not proc from pet damage.  This lead to a situation where the bosses in the Shadowguard finale could become trapped (for the most part, sans for teleportation abilities) by attacking pets and stand no chance against the onslaught.  The owners would simply need to stand in the back and spam heal.  

    With the change to Fiendish Calling, pet damage will now have a chance to proc fiendish calling like all other damage classes.  It is now necessary to control accessory spawn while making sound tactical decisions on how you deal with the added threat.  Do you take a pet that deals more attacks but with less damage, or do you take the howitzer that fires slowly but deadly - and thusly procs less?  How will you structure your party to dispatch accessory minions and heal your tanks?  Will your pocket bard hang back and regenerate your life with enchanting songs while provoking minions to attack one another?  Will your front line fighters cross heal and stand toe-to-toe with even the deadliest monsters?  

    That all being said, we put changes such as this on TC for feedback, and given the nature of fiendish calling, we will be evaluating it's performance and adjusting to achieve the following goals, 

    • Balancing the frequency of the AI executing based on the number of hits a standard boss takes.
    • Allowing adequate cooldown for accessory spawn to be dispatched before another wave is summoned.
    • Ensuring all summons can be targeted by barding abilities.
    • Evaluating the health of summons as compared to their normal templates (this happens now, where summons have a fraction of the health of their normal counterparts).  

    See you on TC!

    The taming revamp brought many returning players back to the game and many new players have a chance to do higher end content. That they were not able to do before. People have been playing longer, more often and having fun.  Why is that something that needs to be changed???

    Many players like to play a tamer.  They would like to also be able to defend a Fel spawn, where thay can get scrolls.  They cant.  Sampires can.

    They would like to go to Doom and get a slight chance at the most expensive item in the game.  They can't unless they slowly take down the spawn for an hour and half the party gave up in frustration. Sampires take 15 minutes to solo Doom.

    You are comparing this to an EM event where most of the players dont have a good suit or weapon or skills because they are from a different shard.  Sure the resident players will have a better chance against lousy templates and greater dragons.

    We don't want to play a Sampire.

    Shadowguard is instanced.  It affects nobody but the players inside at the time. The tamers are not stealing kills from the sampires or anyone else.

    A Hawkwind robe cost 35M last year before the revamp. The Obi 15M.  Look at Atl for a week and you will see the prices are about the same.

    The tamers doing shadowguard did not flood the market with items.

    The loot:

    Sure you get a few legendaries after a lot of time spent doing the floors.  But, how many of those legendaries are kept or put on a vendor.  Most are dropped on the ground outside so they players can go try again.  I've never found a good enough dex piece to keep.  The only piece I have found there is a shield that I found with 4 others with the same stats but different types.  Its worth maybe 10M.

    For the good of UO you as a developer should ask:

    Was this change needed?

    Were tamers in Shadowguard ruining the economy?

    Will this bring new or returning players to the game?

    Will this cause player to play less because of frustration?

    Will this cause accounts to be dropped?
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    I shall say this once and only once. I agree with Kyronix. 
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    Kyronix, you should get used to this reaction from hard core easy mode blues. They cry wolf hard over this, imagine the outrage when you fix the auto pet logout exploits that they’ve been abusing so much that they think it’s real gameplay to log out. 

    If only they didn’t log back in..

    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • UrgeUrge Posts: 637
    Kyronix said:
    With regard to Shadowguard, it currently provides some of, if not the, highest end loot in the world.

    Loot really needs to be adjusted. There's too many newer and returning players that will never make it in Roof while they watch people farm it daily with great reward. I know it's been stated there is a chance at major to legendary artifacts from other things but there really isn't. I have farmed some high end material and I have only gotten 3 usable pieces since the loot change.

    Science has proven discouragement is the leading cause of subscription cancelation.

  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    The great unwashed don’t actually know what they want. They think they want things really easy, they think they want milk and cookies uo. But they don’t yet realise that the harder the goal, the greater the sense of achievement. They don’t yet realise that although it’s more difficult, it’s more fun to play with the cheats turned off. 

    I can see how being a game developer is like being a goalie, people only remember if you get it wrong. But on this you’re not wrong. But they will never thank you in the long run. Just know yourself what it right and be happy knowing what you do is for the good of the game.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • drcossackdrcossack Posts: 49
    Pawain said:
    Kyronix said:
    I don't hate fun.  I'll take your hyperbole in jest and try to offer some insight...

    Boss mobs quickly become overhwhelmed by player pets.  This was true before the Pet Revamp,and given the level of power a pet can reach now, is even more true.  Take a look at any EM event, and you will find even the most beefed up, insanely statted boss mob getting demolished by multiple attacking pets.  They generally don't stand a chance.

    With regard to Shadowguard, it currently provides some of, if not the, highest end loot in the world.  The bosses in Shadowguard (and elsewhere) employ a number of AIs to make the fights dynamic and challenging, one of which is fiendish calling.  Previously, this AI had an issue where it would not proc from pet damage.  This lead to a situation where the bosses in the Shadowguard finale could become trapped (for the most part, sans for teleportation abilities) by attacking pets and stand no chance against the onslaught.  The owners would simply need to stand in the back and spam heal.  

    With the change to Fiendish Calling, pet damage will now have a chance to proc fiendish calling like all other damage classes.  It is now necessary to control accessory spawn while making sound tactical decisions on how you deal with the added threat.  Do you take a pet that deals more attacks but with less damage, or do you take the howitzer that fires slowly but deadly - and thusly procs less?  How will you structure your party to dispatch accessory minions and heal your tanks?  Will your pocket bard hang back and regenerate your life with enchanting songs while provoking minions to attack one another?  Will your front line fighters cross heal and stand toe-to-toe with even the deadliest monsters?  

    That all being said, we put changes such as this on TC for feedback, and given the nature of fiendish calling, we will be evaluating it's performance and adjusting to achieve the following goals, 

    • Balancing the frequency of the AI executing based on the number of hits a standard boss takes.
    • Allowing adequate cooldown for accessory spawn to be dispatched before another wave is summoned.
    • Ensuring all summons can be targeted by barding abilities.
    • Evaluating the health of summons as compared to their normal templates (this happens now, where summons have a fraction of the health of their normal counterparts).  

    See you on TC!

    The taming revamp brought many returning players back to the game and many new players have a chance to do higher end content. That they were not able to do before. People have been playing longer, more often and having fun.  Why is that something that needs to be changed???

    Many players like to play a tamer.  They would like to also be able to defend a Fel spawn, where thay can get scrolls.  They cant.  Sampires can.

    They would like to go to Doom and get a slight chance at the most expensive item in the game.  They can't unless they slowly take down the spawn for an hour and half the party gave up in frustration. Sampires take 15 minutes to solo Doom.

    You are comparing this to an EM event where most of the players dont have a good suit or weapon or skills because they are from a different shard.  Sure the resident players will have a better chance against lousy templates and greater dragons.

    We don't want to play a Sampire.

    Shadowguard is instanced.  It affects nobody but the players inside at the time. The tamers are not stealing kills from the sampires or anyone else.

    A Hawkwind robe cost 35M last year before the revamp. The Obi 15M.  Look at Atl for a week and you will see the prices are about the same.

    The tamers doing shadowguard did not flood the market with items.

    The loot:

    Sure you get a few legendaries after a lot of time spent doing the floors.  But, how many of those legendaries are kept or put on a vendor.  Most are dropped on the ground outside so they players can go try again.  I've never found a good enough dex piece to keep.  The only piece I have found there is a shield that I found with 4 others with the same stats but different types.  Its worth maybe 10M.

    For the good of UO you as a developer should ask:

    Was this change needed?

    Were tamers in Shadowguard ruining the economy?

    Will this bring new or returning players to the game?

    Will this cause player to play less because of frustration?

    Will this cause accounts to be dropped?

    1) You can get scrolls with a tamer.  It's just not practical to do so, because of how long the pets take to kill the Champ.  A sampire, thrower, or archer does a much faster job.

    2) This sounds like a personal problem to me.  It's not about what you LIKE to play - if there's a more efficient way to do something, why would you not opt for that?  I bring a tamer and sampire down to Doom.  Do you know how much I do on my tamer when I'm there?  One room: The Fleshrenderers.  Do you know WHY I use my Sampire?  Because everything gets done at a much faster rate, allowing me to get more chances at drops.  If it weren't for the "Feature" of Fiendish Calling in Shadowguard not triggering spawn, I would have, in all the runs I've done, used Sampires instead of my tamers.

    3) EM Events: I use imbued/reforged gear on the few shards I do them on, with 100% Elemental damage soul glaives.  On a 1 on 1 basis, I outdamage every single mage or tamer at those events.  Point: you don't NEED a fancy suit to do them.  Do you really think that the people who show up on throwers haven't optimized their templates to do the max amount of damage possible in the short time a boss is up?  Because we have.  I don't even need Chiv on mine if I have 2 Slayers: Between that and 100% DI on my gear, I can hit a max of 243 damage with Armor Ignore.  I could probably go even higher if I used Lightning Strike with (or without) Honor, but Honoring at an EM Event is difficult to the point that it's not worth taking into consideration

    4) I don't want to play my sampire either, but I do it anyway, because of the aforementioned efficiency.

    Regarding the Shadowguard change: If it causes people to play less because of frustration, maybe they should adjust their tactics to make their lives easier.  Even before the Doom revamp happened, I knew, from personal experience, that Tamers would simply not work on the Dark Father.  With its leash (where the pet follows) and new spawn (Ancient Lich and Blood Elemental), that's even more true.

    As far as Kyronix's post: I ultimately agree with it, but there are some parts of it that are incorrect.  While I do have some strong pets (Giant/Fire Beetles and one Platinum Drake from Ice Dungeon), they all pale in comparison to what my dexers can do - THEY are the Howitzers on my accounts.  That said, I can use some of my pets in conjunction with my Dexers to allow them to do even more damage: if Rune Corruption has proc'd, a monster is Discorded, and I use Onslaught, my damage will skyrocket, due to the massive reduction in resists.  Even my pets will get an increase in their damage, if they have the right damage type that matches the Onslaught-dropped resist.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 4,888
    Mervyn said:
    Kyronix, you should get used to this reaction from hard core easy mode blues. They cry wolf hard over this, imagine the outrage when you fix the auto pet logout exploits that they’ve been abusing so much that they think it’s real gameplay to log out. 

    If only they didn’t log back in..


    We wont.  You would love it.  All the shards would be Fel only because no one is in Trammel.

    Your play style is in Fel. You cry over not being able to kill the mount of your victim. 

    Removing an area from a large group of players who have been doing the content for a year, Why do you think powerscrolls get to stay in Fel.  

    Removing one of the few fun things to do in a group UO helps nobody.  We have a commonality with other tamers and we like to play in groups with similar tastes.

    Now we are told by @Kyronix ; to take a sampire with us.  Why?  The sampire  or most any Melee toon can do the content alone in 1/4 the time it takes to do on a few tamers that want to complete it.  This is now.  So a group of tamers need to take 3 or 4 times as long and die over and over. ( the main person in the group would be the hidden mage to Res the tamers).


  • PawainPawain Posts: 4,888
    Why does the bug need fixed?  How long does it take you to do the roof with your Ossein Ram?

    Stop the spawn for everyone then.  The spawn is the bug.

    Stop summons from getting the spawn.  Maybe more players will make Mages and Mystics.

    They cant play their now.

  • TeapotTeapot Posts: 58
    edited May 2018
    Pawain said:
    Why does the bug need fixed?  How long does it take you to do the roof with your Ossein Ram?

    Stop the spawn for everyone then.  The spawn is the bug.

    Stop summons from getting the spawn.  Maybe more players will make Mages and Mystics.

    They cant play their now.

    He just seems to be in cloud9 knowing his report are leading to the nerf. A huge amount of his posts seem to be to antagonize most people.  I guess that's one form of entertainment. 
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    How about they award everyone with a winners trophy just for turning up?
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    Okay so look, you can’t afk solo the roof anymore, have you stopped to think that now nobody can afk solo the roof so when you do manage to find a friend to do it with, your reward will be worth more?
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • KHANKHAN Posts: 394
    edited May 2018
    Mervyn said:
    The great unwashed don’t actually know what they want. They think they want things really easy, they think they want milk and cookies uo. But they don’t yet realise that the harder the goal, the greater the sense of achievement. They don’t yet realise that although it’s more difficult, it’s more fun to play with the cheats turned off. 

    I can see how being a game developer is like being a goalie, people only remember if you get it wrong. But on this you’re not wrong. But they will never thank you in the long run. Just know yourself what it right and be happy knowing what you do is for the good of the game.
    I can only speak for myself, as I would not be so presumptuous as to speak on what others think or want. But for me, I don't play the game to fulfill my own need for a "sense of achievement". I feel I have done that in real life. I play the game for enjoyment. Do I enjoy the accomplishment of winning a good fight, you bet! But I do not depend on it in order to have a "greater sense of achievement". 
    If you sell UO items for R.L. $$$, you need to quit playing UO , and get a BETTER R.L. JOB!
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    edited May 2018
    Like I said most people have no idea what they want. If they gave you what you think you want I’m sure you’d get bored fairly quickly and quit paying your subscription. 
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • drcossackdrcossack Posts: 49
    edited May 2018
    Pawain said:

    We wont.  You would love it.  All the shards would be Fel only because no one is in Trammel.

    Your play style is in Fel. You cry over not being able to kill the mount of your victim. 

    Removing an area from a large group of players who have been doing the content for a year, Why do you think powerscrolls get to stay in Fel.  

    Removing one of the few fun things to do in a group UO helps nobody.  We have a commonality with other tamers and we like to play in groups with similar tastes.

    Now we are told by @ Kyronix  to take a sampire with us.  Why?  The sampire  or most any Melee toon can do the content alone in 1/4 the time it takes to do on a few tamers that want to complete it.  This is now.  So a group of tamers need to take 3 or 4 times as long and die over and over. ( the main person in the group would be the hidden mage to Res the tamers).



    We've been over the Powerscroll issue over and over.  Why bring it up again?  Nobody is stopping you from doing Fel champ spawns and getting your own scrolls.

    Question: Why are you so opposed to the sampire?  Do you remember the recent Doom community hunts on LS, where the tamers took forever to kill the Dark Fathers?  Who do you think helped you speed up those Dark Fathers, simply so you didn't have to run around non-stop and die repeatedly/watch your pets die repeatedly?  Oh, that's right, it was the two guys who were playing dexers.

    Also, the spawn is NOT the bug.  Tamers' pets not triggering it is the bug.  Look at everything else that summons spawn while things are killing them: Barracoon, Neira, Abyssal Infernal, Dark Father, Underwater boss, and others I'm probably forgetting.  All of those can do it whether you use pets or not (although the Underwater Boss is limited to Paralithodes.)  Why is it only different for pets in Shadowguard, when it works properly literally everywhere else that it can happen?

    As I said before, it's about nothing more than efficiency.  You can still work together with your group of tamers.  But there's no reason why you can't bring a sampire to speed things along.  I don't know about you, but using a bad group composition and needing 2+ hours to do something, when a better group composition can finish it in AT LEAST half the time, just isn't fun to me.
  • SyncrosSyncros Posts: 116
    Kronal said:
    Odd how you claim tamers solo it yet no one has come forward to say they do.  You know why?  Because it's not doable.
    I can solo eveything but the roof (havent tried) on my tamer since my pets arent 120's and fully trained up.   My friends can solo it on their sampires but its risky and takes a long time, just like some rooms on my tamer.     
  • PawainPawain Posts: 4,888
    drcossack said:
    Pawain said:

    We wont.  You would love it.  All the shards would be Fel only because no one is in Trammel.

    Your play style is in Fel. You cry over not being able to kill the mount of your victim. 

    Removing an area from a large group of players who have been doing the content for a year, Why do you think powerscrolls get to stay in Fel.  

    Removing one of the few fun things to do in a group UO helps nobody.  We have a commonality with other tamers and we like to play in groups with similar tastes.

    Now we are told by @ Kyronix  to take a sampire with us.  Why?  The sampire  or most any Melee toon can do the content alone in 1/4 the time it takes to do on a few tamers that want to complete it.  This is now.  So a group of tamers need to take 3 or 4 times as long and die over and over. ( the main person in the group would be the hidden mage to Res the tamers).



    We've been over the Powerscroll issue over and over.  Why bring it up again?  Nobody is stopping you from doing Fel champ spawns and getting your own scrolls.

    Question: Why are you so opposed to the sampire?  Do you remember the recent Doom community hunts on LS, where the tamers took forever to kill the Dark Fathers?  Who do you think helped you speed up those Dark Fathers, simply so you didn't have to run around non-stop and die repeatedly/watch your pets die repeatedly?  Oh, that's right, it was the two guys who were playing dexers.

    Also, the spawn is NOT the bug.  Tamers' pets not triggering it is the bug.  Look at everything else that summons spawn while things are killing them: Barracoon, Neira, Abyssal Infernal, Dark Father, Underwater boss, and others I'm probably forgetting.  All of those can do it whether you use pets or not (although the Underwater Boss is limited to Paralithodes.)  Why is it only different for pets in Shadowguard, when it works properly literally everywhere else that it can happen?

    As I said before, it's about nothing more than efficiency.  You can still work together with your group of tamers.  But there's no reason why you can't bring a sampire to speed things along.  I don't know about you, but using a bad group composition and needing 2+ hours to do something, when a better group composition can finish it in AT LEAST half the time, just isn't fun to me.
    Im comparing the fact that they wont change powerscrolls to them changing the Roof after it has been in place for a year  for one persons enjoyment.  Prob Kyronix enjoys it also.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    From reading some of the comments in this thread, I now understand how the crowd shouted to free Barabbas!
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • SlissSliss Posts: 273
    Syncros said:
    Kronal said:
    Odd how you claim tamers solo it yet no one has come forward to say they do.  You know why?  Because it's not doable.
    I can solo eveything but the roof (havent tried) on my tamer since my pets arent 120's and fully trained up.   My friends can solo it on their sampires but its risky and takes a long time, just like some rooms on my tamer.     
    This topic IS about the roof, not everything else. You will not be able to solo the roof with a tamer 120s or no 120s. You would have trouble killing some of the bosses with a single pet even with a full bard support.
  • drcossackdrcossack Posts: 49
    edited May 2018
    Pawain said:
    Im comparing the fact that they wont change powerscrolls to them changing the Roof after it has been in place for a year  for one persons enjoyment.  Prob Kyronix enjoys it also.

    Did you deliberately miss the part where it's a BUG?  I explained that in my last post, although you ignored that paragraph.  It's not a new bug either.  It's been in place since Shadowguard was introduced - that was in late 2015.  I would know, because I made use of it even back then.  And even told other people about it.

    However, I did not, until recently, think that it was a bug.  But, after nearly 3 years of it, I figured it was working as intended.

    I haven't seen the changed Shadowguard in action yet, but I will take a look at it this weekend.  I can guarantee you one thing: regardless of how the devs have changed it, I will be able to adapt to it.  And it won't take too long for me to figure it out.

    Sliss said:
    This topic IS about the roof, not everything else. You will not be able to solo the roof with a tamer 120s or no 120s. You would have trouble killing some of the bosses with a single pet even with a full bard support.

    Do you really think that's the case?  It's not.  Even long before the pet revamp, I was able to solo Ozymandias (easiest) and Anon (somewhat difficult, but not too much - you have to pay attention to his transformations.)  Virtuebane you can't - he re-targets, moves fast, and has the Abyssal Infernal AoE ability.  Juo'nar will beat the crap out of you - Primeval Lich's AoE ability, necro spells (poison strike and wither), its discord-esque ability, etc.  You NEED at least one other character for both of those if you're on a tamer.
  • LarisaLarisa Posts: 602
    We just did 2 runs on Test Center...5 of us, all tamers, one bard tamer...2 dimeasaurs, a dread spider, a cu and a fire beetle for the first run. Kyronix said he cut the spawn in half from what it was yesterday, this is the first time I have been able to test it.

    It was tricky, even cut in half the spawn was insane! BUT if you know what you're doing it's not bad at all.






    The worst was Ju'nor.....we didn't have any deaths until him lol but we ran off, rezzed up, regrouped and got it done.

    The second run we went in with different pets, some weaker...I brought my phoenix, most of the pets had some sort of AOE though so that helped a bit with spawn.

    The second run was much worse..I think he might have upped the spawn a bit just to test...a LOT more deaths the second time around, a LOT more spawn...but we managed to get it done too.

    He said he will be tweaking it a bit for the next publish, but from my point of view? IF you know what you're doing it's not bad at all. You have to pay attention and be good at healing pets and party members...most of my party was not happy with the results and didn't think it was fun at all..I think I am the only one that enjoyed it and thought it wasn't bad at all.

  • SlissSliss Posts: 273
    Pawain said:
    For the good of UO you as a developer should ask:

    Was this change needed?

    Were tamers in Shadowguard ruining the economy?

    Will this bring new or returning players to the game?

    Will this cause player to play less because of frustration?

    Will this cause accounts to be dropped?
    Very well reasoned post. I would like to add another point for Kyronix. To me the idea behind any creative change in the game is to improve player engagement. Fiendish AI does the opposite.
    First, let's clear up some misinformation that is being spread. You can't solo roof on a tamer. Even in group using a tamer requires constant interaction. There is no AFK mode. Tamers do die frequently on the roof.
    But you know who can solo the roof? Yep, our friend the sampire. Currently casters are excluded from the roof altogether, and tamers require a group to do it. Instead of making changes that would allow casters to have meaningful participation, the new changes pretty much limit the viable templates to Sampires. Apart from this making for a very boring game, it is a huge turn off for all those returnees that we are getting with EJ. 
    You can make a viable caster in a week. A tamer would need a month or more. A good Sampire suit (the kind that can do roof) may need year+ to be put together.This change limits the top content of the game to the template that has been overpowered to start with, and the one that is inaccessible to returning players within a reasonable span of time.
    Shadowguard is grindy enough already where it's in no danger at all to flooding the market with Arties. Remove the fiendish AI altogether so that it's accessible to templates other than Sampires. Engage more players rather than driving them away.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 4,888
    Larisa said:
    We just did 2 runs on Test Center...5 of us, all tamers, one bard tamer...2 dimeasaurs, a dread spider, a cu and a fire beetle for the first run. Kyronix said he cut the spawn in half from what it was yesterday, this is the first time I have been able to test it.

    It was tricky, even cut in half the spawn was insane! BUT if you know what you're doing it's not bad at all.






    The worst was Ju'nor.....we didn't have any deaths until him lol but we ran off, rezzed up, regrouped and got it done.

    The second run we went in with different pets, some weaker...I brought my phoenix, most of the pets had some sort of AOE though so that helped a bit with spawn.

    The second run was much worse..I think he might have upped the spawn a bit just to test...a LOT more deaths the second time around, a LOT more spawn...but we managed to get it done too.

    He said he will be tweaking it a bit for the next publish, but from my point of view? IF you know what you're doing it's not bad at all. You have to pay attention and be good at healing pets and party members...most of my party was not happy with the results and didn't think it was fun at all..I think I am the only one that enjoyed it and thought it wasn't bad at all.
    There were plenty of us having fun before the change.  I never heard a player say, I really wish this was more difficult.

    Cut the spawn by half again and it may be fine.
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