"Killer" Talismans useless ?

poppspopps Posts: 4,013
edited October 2023 in General Discussions

There are Talismans for dexers that come with the "Killer" property up to +100% damage.

Different to Slayer Talismans such as the Cameos, for example, these "Killer" Talismans do not carry other properties and can only do up to +100% Damage to the single creature they refer to, as compared to Slayer Talismans which do 300% Damage to not just 1, but a number of creatures weak to that Slayer or, +200% damage in the case of a Super Slayer which affects even a larger pool of creatures albeit doing 2/3 of the damage that Slayer Talismans can do.

Since only 1 Talisman can be worn, why on earth would a Warrior ever want to use a "Killer" Talisman rather then a Slayer or Super Slayer Talisman ?

Point is, I fail to understand what is the purpose of the "Killer" Talismans which are in UO.

Am I missing something which makes these "Killer" Talismans useful in certain scenarios ?

Comments

  • Victim_Of_SiegeVictim_Of_Siege Posts: 2,089
    edited October 2023
    popps said:

    There are Talismans for dexers that come with the "Killer" property up to +100% damage.

    Different to Slayer Talismans such as the Cameos, for example, these "Killer" Talismans do not carry other properties and can only do up to +100% Damage to the single creature they refer to, as compared to Slayer Talismans which do 300% Damage to not just 1, but a number of creatures weak to that Slayer or, +200% damage in the case of a Super Slayer which affects even a larger pool of creatures albeit doing 2/3 of the damage that Slayer Talismans can do.

    Since only 1 Talisman can be worn, why on earth would a Warrior ever want to use a "Killer" Talisman rather then a Slayer or Super Slayer Talisman ?

    Point is, I fail to understand what is the purpose of the "Killer" Talismans which are in UO.

    Am I missing something which makes these "Killer" Talismans useful in certain scenarios ?
    Because they target specific creatures and usually have a % of protection against another creature. if you find them unuseful, toss them in the trash and move on. 

    **EDIT**
    with a quick Googler I found this Gem:

    "Killers

    Killer bonuses increase the damage dealt to a particular type of creature, and are found in the range of 1-100%. Killer damage property DOES stack with Slayer damage, subject to the Damage Increase cap of 300%."

    Which means you could throw a Super Slayer weapon for a particular type of Mob and then a talisman with a particular mob (IE Reptile on weapon and 100% Yamadon Killer, which i have one of somewhere) and get to 300% damage on a Yamadon.


    A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .

    Never be afraid to challenge the status quo

  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,910
    edited October 2023
    They are from Modains legacy in 2005. (maybe earlier, I'm not sure) They were great back then because our weapons had very few stats.  

    They are from Heartwood crafting quests.  Also Peerless drop them.  They can have beneficial crafting bonuses. 

    They were worn back in 2005 because they improved the gear we had then,

    The Slayers on those items are very useful as you will find when you play Dungeon events in UO.
    You may wish you had Yamandon protection when you fight one of those.

    Time passes and the old things are replaced by new things.

    Our gear is better now, we do not need help killing a giant beetle now.

    Here is a bow from back in those days:


    Before imbuing was possible.  Now you see why we needed those talismans.

    If you do not like them, tell the devs to remove Heartwood.


    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 2,213
    Pawain said:
    They are from Modains legacy in 2005.  They were great back then because our weapons had very few stats.  

    They are from Heartwood crafting quests.  Also Peerless drop them.  They can have beneficial crafting bonuses. 

    They were worn back in 2005 because they improved the gear we had then,

    The Slayers on those items are very useful as you will find when you play Dungeon events in UO.

    Time passes and the old things are replaced by new things.
    Now this a through answer and the thread should be locked as the next 19 replies with be trolling @Mariah @Rorschach ;
  • A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .

    Never be afraid to challenge the status quo

  • Pawain said:
    They are from Modains legacy in 2005. (maybe earlier, I'm not sure) They were great back then because our weapons had very few stats.  

    They are from Heartwood crafting quests.  Also Peerless drop them.  They can have beneficial crafting bonuses. 

    They were worn back in 2005 because they improved the gear we had then,

    The Slayers on those items are very useful as you will find when you play Dungeon events in UO.
    You may wish you had Yamandon protection when you fight one of those.

    Time passes and the old things are replaced by new things.

    Our gear is better now, we do not need help killing a giant beetle now.


    Your gear is better, Mines still Meh.
    A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .

    Never be afraid to challenge the status quo

  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,910
    Popps is like these killer talis are useless.

    I'm like OMG I got a misprint!  I'm keeping it forever!




    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • % Killer talismans are not only not useless but are quite desirable for certain templates.

    For instance, % Killer talismans can be incredibly useful for paladins, due to the way Modifier is calculated.

    This behavior is discussed in this thread:
    Melee Damage Calculation Diagram - Ultima Online Forums (uo.com)

    and further elaborated on in this comment:
    Question about slayers and damage - Ultima Online Forums (uo.com)


    100% Killer talismans allow a character with only 84 Chivalry (50% EoO) to reach 300% Modifier, without the use of any other modifiers.

    65% Killer talismans allow a character with 120 Chivalry (82% EoO) to reach 300% Modifier, without the use of any other modifiers.

    (Unless this behavior was changed with publish 116.0 or 116.1, which I doubt.)

    So yeah, 65% or higher Killer talismans for many creatures are going to be sought after by those who play and understand paladins. 

    Treasures of the Feudal Lords is really turning out to be a pure paladin buff publish. 
    -Arroth
  • Grimbeard said:
    Surely after all this time and stupid threads you have finally built chars that are fully kitted out and trained, this event should not be a surprise to you

    you need to spend less time here with stupid posts and more time in game 

    SAD 
    Why couldn't you ignore this post? 
    Because I am shocked at how bad this veteran player is

    100% of his world ending questions can be answered in game if he bothered

    instead he uses this forum as his personal database and then debates to death answers he does not like

    i am convinced he knows the asnseers beforehand but likes drama and enjoys people arguing for him and very soon will abandon this to start a new even more stupid topic

    an internet troll

    NONE of his issues are ever important enough for the devs to pay any attention to, and he will just think up something else and expect people like your good self to argue fir him while he sits back and gets off on the drama

    nearky 4K posts and none are fir the benefit of others, just him and his awful gameplay 

    this is why I respond, because I am embarrassed for him, and his 5 minutes a day effort he puts into the game 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,910
    @Arroth_Thaiel The problem is that they stopped adding new Mobs.  You could make a lot of gold if you found a Frost Mite Killer right now!

    Also RNG  what is the chance to Get Yamandon killer with Yamandon Protection.

    You see I keep any that may turn out to be good someday.  And with the jewelry box we can keep a lot of them. 

    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,013
    popps said:

    There are Talismans for dexers that come with the "Killer" property up to +100% damage.

    Different to Slayer Talismans such as the Cameos, for example, these "Killer" Talismans do not carry other properties and can only do up to +100% Damage to the single creature they refer to, as compared to Slayer Talismans which do 300% Damage to not just 1, but a number of creatures weak to that Slayer or, +200% damage in the case of a Super Slayer which affects even a larger pool of creatures albeit doing 2/3 of the damage that Slayer Talismans can do.

    Since only 1 Talisman can be worn, why on earth would a Warrior ever want to use a "Killer" Talisman rather then a Slayer or Super Slayer Talisman ?

    Point is, I fail to understand what is the purpose of the "Killer" Talismans which are in UO.

    Am I missing something which makes these "Killer" Talismans useful in certain scenarios ?
    Because they target specific creatures and usually have a % of protection against another creature. if you find them unuseful, toss them in the trash and move on. 

    **EDIT**
    with a quick Googler I found this Gem:

    "Killers

    Killer bonuses increase the damage dealt to a particular type of creature, and are found in the range of 1-100%. Killer damage property DOES stack with Slayer damage, subject to the Damage Increase cap of 300%."

    Which means you could throw a Super Slayer weapon for a particular type of Mob and then a talisman with a particular mob (IE Reptile on weapon and 100% Yamadon Killer, which i have one of somewhere) and get to 300% damage on a Yamadon.



    To my understanding, a Slayer property does already 300% damage while the Super Slayer does 200% damage.

    So, while having a Super Slayer on a Weapon + a 100% Killer damage on a Talisman would have one reach the CAP of 300%% damage to that particular creature, my question is "why" would anyone do this, if a "Slayer" exists for that creature which, on its own, does already 300% damage and covers a larger pool of creatures as compared to a Killer Talisman which only covers 1 creature ?

    Now, "if" the killer damage was made to go beyond the 300% damage CAP then this would make the use of these killer slayers again useful but as they are, I really fail to see why anyone would want to use them...

    They are limited to 1 creature only, while Slayers and Super Slayers cover a wider pool of creatures and the 100% ones are quite rare to come by, most which are around are well below 100%... slayers are instead much easier to come by and can be imbued on weapons...
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,013
    % Killer talismans are not only not useless but are quite desirable for certain templates.

    For instance, % Killer talismans can be incredibly useful for paladins, due to the way Modifier is calculated.

    This behavior is discussed in this thread:
    Melee Damage Calculation Diagram - Ultima Online Forums (uo.com)

    and further elaborated on in this comment:
    Question about slayers and damage - Ultima Online Forums (uo.com)


    100% Killer talismans allow a character with only 84 Chivalry (50% EoO) to reach 300% Modifier, without the use of any other modifiers.

    65% Killer talismans allow a character with 120 Chivalry (82% EoO) to reach 300% Modifier, without the use of any other modifiers.

    (Unless this behavior was changed with publish 116.0 or 116.1, which I doubt.)

    So yeah, 65% or higher Killer talismans for many creatures are going to be sought after by those who play and understand paladins. 

    Treasures of the Feudal Lords is really turning out to be a pure paladin buff publish. 


    Hmmm.... that is a interesting point of view which you bring up.... although, not of an easy understanding for the average UO player...

    Do you mind clarifying more in details why pure Paladins could benefit, particularly with the upcoming Event of Treasures of the Feudal Lords, of 65% or higher Killer Talismans ?

    Oh, and by the way, to what Template (skills) are you referring when you say "pure Paladin" ?
    The reason for asking, is that different players, I noticed, have different views on what skills and skill points may or may not make a "pure Paladin"....

    Thank you.

  • popps said:
    popps said:

    There are Talismans for dexers that come with the "Killer" property up to +100% damage.

    Different to Slayer Talismans such as the Cameos, for example, these "Killer" Talismans do not carry other properties and can only do up to +100% Damage to the single creature they refer to, as compared to Slayer Talismans which do 300% Damage to not just 1, but a number of creatures weak to that Slayer or, +200% damage in the case of a Super Slayer which affects even a larger pool of creatures albeit doing 2/3 of the damage that Slayer Talismans can do.

    Since only 1 Talisman can be worn, why on earth would a Warrior ever want to use a "Killer" Talisman rather then a Slayer or Super Slayer Talisman ?

    Point is, I fail to understand what is the purpose of the "Killer" Talismans which are in UO.

    Am I missing something which makes these "Killer" Talismans useful in certain scenarios ?
    Because they target specific creatures and usually have a % of protection against another creature. if you find them unuseful, toss them in the trash and move on. 

    **EDIT**
    with a quick Googler I found this Gem:

    "Killers

    Killer bonuses increase the damage dealt to a particular type of creature, and are found in the range of 1-100%. Killer damage property DOES stack with Slayer damage, subject to the Damage Increase cap of 300%."

    Which means you could throw a Super Slayer weapon for a particular type of Mob and then a talisman with a particular mob (IE Reptile on weapon and 100% Yamadon Killer, which i have one of somewhere) and get to 300% damage on a Yamadon.



    To my understanding, a Slayer property does already 300% damage while the Super Slayer does 200% damage.

    So, while having a Super Slayer on a Weapon + a 100% Killer damage on a Talisman would have one reach the CAP of 300%% damage to that particular creature, my question is "why" would anyone do this, if a "Slayer" exists for that creature which, on its own, does already 300% damage and covers a larger pool of creatures as compared to a Killer Talisman which only covers 1 creature ?

    Now, "if" the killer damage was made to go beyond the 300% damage CAP then this would make the use of these killer slayers again useful but as they are, I really fail to see why anyone would want to use them...

    They are limited to 1 creature only, while Slayers and Super Slayers cover a wider pool of creatures and the 100% ones are quite rare to come by, most which are around are well below 100%... slayers are instead much easier to come by and can be imbued on weapons...
    As I said, if you find them useless just toss em in the trash and move on with your day. 
    A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .

    Never be afraid to challenge the status quo

  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,253
    Victim_Of_Siege said:

    Killer bonuses increase the damage dealt to a particular type of creature, and are found in the range of 1-100%. Killer damage property DOES stack with Slayer damage, subject to the Damage Increase cap of 300%."

    Which means you could throw a Super Slayer weapon for a particular type of Mob and then a talisman with a particular mob (IE Reptile on weapon and 100% Yamadon Killer, which i have one of somewhere) and get to 300% damage on a Yamadon.

    I'm sure you know this but just to clarify; you could also stack super slayers to get to 300% (ie Reptile cameo / reptile slayer wep). That's how I fought paragon lich lords in Deceit last year.

  • keven2002 said:
    Victim_Of_Siege said:

    Killer bonuses increase the damage dealt to a particular type of creature, and are found in the range of 1-100%. Killer damage property DOES stack with Slayer damage, subject to the Damage Increase cap of 300%."

    Which means you could throw a Super Slayer weapon for a particular type of Mob and then a talisman with a particular mob (IE Reptile on weapon and 100% Yamadon Killer, which i have one of somewhere) and get to 300% damage on a Yamadon.

    I'm sure you know this but just to clarify; you could also stack super slayers to get to 300% (ie Reptile cameo / reptile slayer wep). That's how I fought paragon lich lords in Deceit last year.

    guess that explains the high price/demand of cameos. I wans't sure 100% if that stacked, thanks you.

    A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .

    Never be afraid to challenge the status quo

  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,910
    If you have chiv you only need the super slayer with EoO. Thats why Cameos are awesome.

    If you have the specific slayer you don't need EoO.

    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 1,060
    edited October 2023
    Pawain said:
    The problem is that they stopped adding new Mobs.
    Agreed.


    Also RNG  what is the chance to Get Yamandon killer with Yamandon Protection.
    If there were only some way one could automate quests in Heartwood to generate 1000's of talismans...



    popps said:

    ...although, not of an easy understanding for the average UO player...
    Average players nothing, veteran players have difficulty understanding the damage system in UO!

    And we haven't even gotten into proportional losses, earn backs for proportional losses, or modifier rounding by skill/weapon... :)

    Do you mind clarifying more in details why pure Paladins could benefit, particularly with the upcoming Event of Treasures of the Feudal Lords, of 65% or higher Killer Talismans ?
    Most Sampires, if they bother with Chivalry, are not running 120 Chivalry. For a pure Paladin, Chivalry will most likely be the main skill and will most likely be 120.

    Any character with 120 Chiv (82% EoO) is going to be able to use a 65% tali to hit 300% modifier. Nothing else required. It just makes life a little easier if you don't have to look for only 100% Killer talismans.

    If you have less than 120 Chiv, i.e. a Sampire or other hybrid template, you'll need tali's with higher %'s to hit 300% Modifier. You might have perfection, but you have to get honor on the target, and perfection has to build with each hit.

    Pure paladin's can use a far greater range of %'s talis to get to 300% Modifier.
    Pure paladins get to 300% Modifier on the first strike, not 9 strikes later.
    Pure paladins don't lose 30% modifier if they miss a swing.
    Pure paladins do not rely on life leech to stay alive.

    For this particular event, combine those abilities with the AI Damage output from the new hammer pick and the mods on those gloves, and well, it's just going to be a good publish for pure paladins. Specifically Mace Fighters, but anyone running 120 Chiv is going to have a good time, if you can find the right talis. The higher your Chivalry, the wider the range of % talis to work with

    Oh, and by the way, to what Template (skills) are you referring when you say "pure Paladin" ?
    I'm thinking of pure paladin as 120 Chivalry, probably without other warrior skills (i.e. no necro, bushido, or ninjitsu). This leaves plenty of room to run a 6x120 build, or even a 7x build.

    Base:
    120 Chivalry
    120 Weapon skill (for this publish I'd take Mace Fighting)
    120 Tactics (for damage)
    120 Anatomy (for damage)

    Adjust as needed:
    120 Parry
    120 Healing
    120 Resist (good against the undead)


    If you can find someone to x-heal with, it should be a fun couple weeks.
    -Arroth
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,910
    That's why I asked if those bags under the crafters were full of disarded Talismans. 
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,013
    Pawain said:
    The problem is that they stopped adding new Mobs.
    Agreed.


    Also RNG  what is the chance to Get Yamandon killer with Yamandon Protection.
    If there were only some way one could automate quests in Heartwood to generate 1000's of talismans...



    popps said:

    ...although, not of an easy understanding for the average UO player...
    Average players nothing, veteran players have difficulty understanding the damage system in UO!

    And we haven't even gotten into proportional losses, earn backs for proportional losses, or modifier rounding by skill/weapon... :)

    Do you mind clarifying more in details why pure Paladins could benefit, particularly with the upcoming Event of Treasures of the Feudal Lords, of 65% or higher Killer Talismans ?
    Most Sampires, if they bother with Chivalry, are not running 120 Chivalry. For a pure Paladin, Chivalry will most likely be the main skill and will most likely be 120.

    Any character with 120 Chiv (82% EoO) is going to be able to use a 65% tali to hit 300% modifier. Nothing else required. It just makes life a little easier if you don't have to look for only 100% Killer talismans.

    If you have less than 120 Chiv, i.e. a Sampire or other hybrid template, you'll need tali's with higher %'s to hit 300% Modifier. You might have perfection, but you have to get honor on the target, and perfection has to build with each hit.

    Pure paladin's can use a far greater range of %'s talis to get to 300% Modifier.
    Pure paladins get to 300% Modifier on the first strike, not 9 strikes later.
    Pure paladins don't lose 30% modifier if they miss a swing.
    Pure paladins do not rely on life leech to stay alive.

    For this particular event, combine those abilities with the AI Damage output from the new hammer pick and the mods on those gloves, and well, it's just going to be a good publish for pure paladins. Specifically Mace Fighters, but anyone running 120 Chiv is going to have a good time, if you can find the right talis. The higher your Chivalry, the wider the range of % talis to work with

    Oh, and by the way, to what Template (skills) are you referring when you say "pure Paladin" ?
    I'm thinking of pure paladin as 120 Chivalry, probably without other warrior skills (i.e. no necro, bushido, or ninjitsu). This leaves plenty of room to run a 6x120 build, or even a 7x build.

    Base:
    120 Chivalry
    120 Weapon skill (for this publish I'd take Mace Fighting)
    120 Tactics (for damage)
    120 Anatomy (for damage)

    Adjust as needed:
    120 Parry
    120 Healing
    120 Resist (good against the undead)


    If you can find someone to x-heal with, it should be a fun couple weeks.
    Thank you for the good info.

    If you can find someone to x-heal with, it should be a fun couple weeks.


    Talking about this, I have seen several of your posts about the EC....

    Could you please suggest, both for the EC and for the CC, a macro to cross heal a nearby total stranger (another player with a dexer who just showed up...) ?

    That is, a Macro that would work, regardless of the character that is close by... only working on a "friendly" character that is within a certain number of tiles....

    Thank you  !

  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 1,449
    popps said:

    @ Arroth_Thaiel

    Talking about this, I have seen several of your posts about the EC....

    Could you please suggest, both for the EC and for the CC, a macro to cross heal a nearby total stranger (another player with a dexer who just showed up...) ?

    That is, a Macro that would work, regardless of the character that is close by... only working on a "friendly" character that is within a certain number of tiles....

    Thank you  !

    I think you'll find that was covered in this thread: Is it possible to make an EC command script for this please? - Ultima Online Forums (uo.com)

  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 1,060
    edited October 2023
    popps,

    Any questions you have about CC you're going to have to get someone else to answer. It's not that I dislike CC or anything, I just haven't used CC since 2014.

    --
    As for your macro question in the EC, there are a bunch of solutions which get you most of the way there, but nothing that I know of that works perfectly each time to do what you're asking.

    The thread Petra linked to has one solution, which works some of the time, unless that solution has been further refined and fixed to work all of the time.

    Because the solution in that thread doesn't work all the time, I would follow a different path.

    --
    You can always put bandages in a hotbar and click on the bandage, then the health bar that's low.

    --
    If you want a little more automation and you're just looking to cross heal random people, I would write a macro that is:
    Target Default Object 1 > Bandage(Target Current) > Delay 3
    Repeat 10 times, or whatever.

    Put Store Default Object 1 on a hotbar (you could even assign it a hotkey) and when some random person was low on life, click on Store Default Object 1, then target the person. Now, whenever you execute the healing macro you've associated with Object 1, it will heal that person. (10 times in a row even!)

    This would be a generic macro, and you could re-associate it with whomever you meet, as you meet them. You would have to Store someone once, but after that the macro would work for them for as long as you played together.

    --
    If you're healing the same friends/guildmates over and over, you can write individual healing macros for each guildmate:
    Bandage(Target Stored) > Delay 3
    Repeat as desired.

    The longer the macro, the more likely it will be interrupted by a keypress, such as executing a special move.

    --
    If you really want to just keypress to the closest friendly, you'll have to mess with your mobiles bar filters and smart target options. The filters and smart targets are supposed to work together to allow more precise targeting, but the entire system is just...suboptimal.

    As an experiment, I have my mobiles bar filters set to:
    User Settings > Mobiles Bar
    Innocent

    Now, when I use Actions > Smart Nearest Target, it will bring up the nearest blue.

    If I use Actions > Target Severely Injured Mobile, it will bring up the blue in range with the lowest life.

    This is pretty reliable, but it means I can only have Innocents in my mobiles bar, which makes the entire thing useful and worthless and the same time.
    :(


    If you move to Smart Previous / Smart Next, things don't work nearly as well, just as with the rest of the targeting system. (This is due to the way the functions are written to return data about what is around you, along with some bugs in assembling / clearing data tables. - much of this is fixed in Pinco's UI.)

    --
    Anyway, those are some different ways to target and heal toons around you. Since smart targeting is basically worthless, I'd use the Store Object method for randoms, and write specific macros for those you play with more frequently.

    Good luck!
    -Arroth
  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 1,449
    Actually I gave up on the more complex solution, and now I just have a macro 'target nearest friendly' 'bandage selected target, because you have to be standing next to someone to actually bandage them anyway
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