Current Best PvP Template

SurlySurly Posts: 1
Hey guys, I can't really find much on this, but it seems like it might be the Bok Mage? Although I know PvP is super complicated these days with weapon switching and whatnot.

I just want to consider giving it a shot, but I don't know where to begin. 

Comments

  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited May 2023
    "yes I would say bok mage is best allround template.
    All templates have strengths and weakness,
    you're very vulnerable to disarm, but overall is strong template.

    you want magery at least 110
    Eval 120
    Resist 120
    Bushido 120 (real skill)
    Parry 120
    Swords 120 (90 must be real skill)
    tactics 60 (real skill)
    "

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  • jelinidasjelinidas Posts: 352
    What client should we use?
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    "yes, use a client where you don't have tab through 20 sheep before selecting an orange,
    join a guild and people will help you set up"
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  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,303
    edited May 2023
    Whilst agreeing with everything written, the main issue I have here, is the name and the classification of this template.

    I get that it is called Bok - because it uses Boks - (a swordsmanship weapon), and I get it is called Mage, because it has some magery, but this is completely misleading.

    It needs to be recognised, this monstrosity is in fact a Dexxer, warrior.
    Not a mage.

    Swords 120 (90 must be real skill)
    Tactics 60 (real skill)
    Bushido 120 (real skill)
    Parry 120
    (Resist 120)

    Magery 110+
    Eval 120
    Resist 120

    420 (540) Dexxer skills, and 350 Mage skills - and even Resisting Spells is questionable as this is a defensive ability that spans classes - (I've now adjusted for that in brackets.)

    A bit like Sampires - A Sampire is not a Necromancer - it is another Monstrosity PvM based Warrior, stealing Mage based skills, to become completely unbalanced because it can just do too much.


    Surely now @CovenantX - you can see Warriors are unbalanced due to the sheer amount of what they are able to use across the skills. I can understand this being called a Hybrid, I cannot class this as a Mage, I can class this as a Warrior. But these templates are a problem, and the Warrior ability to use ALL skills and stats given via Power-Creep.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    "yes watch me warrior someone to death 2 v 1
    i only cast one spell at the end when they are redlined, target is not even cursed...."


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  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 928
    edited May 2023

    Cookie said:
    Whilst agreeing with everything written, the main issue I have here, is the name and the classification of this template.


    Surely now @ CovenantX - you can see Warriors are unbalanced due to the sheer amount of what they are able to use across the skills. I can understand this being called a Hybrid, I cannot class this as a Mage, I can class this as a Warrior. But these templates are a problem, and the Warrior ability to use ALL skills and stats given via Power-Creep.
     You've gotta be the only person to ever even think this way.

        These templates are only a problem because access to Parry allows them to be... if it weren't true Archer/Thrower-Mages would be the best offensive pvp template.

        Tank-mages have existed even before AoS before spell-channeling was a thing. never been a game-breaking problem except the two times Parry was usable by them... (2004-2007 & 2018-present)

      Dexer = majority of damage is from a weapon-based source (Swords,Mace,Fencing,Archery & Throwing).

      Mage =  majority of damage is from spell-based source (Magery)

     Under those classifications, playing a dexer is useless, all because of Parry+Magery combination being so easy to achieve, allowing the mage to have such a low chance of being hit thus allowing so many spells to go off.

      you can easily make a tank-mage without parry (I have a few).   but then you won't have evasion to protect you against mages.   so sync dumps from casters (cause spells don't miss) is the only real threat.

      to answer the OP's question.

      Bokuto-Mage aka Parry-evade-mage is by far the best pvp template for the last ~5 years or so.
      It has the greatest offense & the greatest defense, the most reliable source of damage (spells cause they don't miss) and Parry to further protect you from any non-spell-based interruptions/damage..    -If you're thinking that's the dumbest garbage you've ever heard, you're right.   it's needed a fix for a very long time, was easily foreseen & warned about (by yours truly, and several others) when the last 'pvp' changes were being tested. ~2018

    Yoshi said:
    "yes watch me warrior someone to death 2 v 1
    i only cast one spell at the end when they are redlined, target is not even cursed...."


        Honestly the only surprising part of that video to me is that you found 2 people that don't have parry.   That's honestly the most shocking part, the rest of it was pretty much exactly what anyone who's pvp'd in UO within the last several years would expect.
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited May 2023
    @Rorscharch   will tell you that nobody uses a bokuto
    its why he closed the nerve strike debuff bug thread?
    so now he make everyone download third party client for fix issue if u want to fight one of these super rare people who use a bokuto.. but nah you’ll never get nerve striked, nothing to see here.

    i guess all the bots farming in fan dancer dojo on every shard 23/7 are doing it for the gold…and not the bokuto

    i ask him many times to share his elite tactic for dealing with being nerve striked but he don’t share.
    It’s funny cos I don’t see his name in the last pvp tourney.. 
    he must just be so good that he don’t need to enter”


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  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,303
    edited May 2023
    CovenantX said:

    Cookie said:
    Whilst agreeing with everything written, the main issue I have here, is the name and the classification of this template.


    Surely now @ CovenantX - you can see Warriors are unbalanced due to the sheer amount of what they are able to use across the skills. I can understand this being called a Hybrid, I cannot class this as a Mage, I can class this as a Warrior. But these templates are a problem, and the Warrior ability to use ALL skills and stats given via Power-Creep.
     You've gotta be the only person to ever even think this way.

        These templates are only a problem because access to Parry allows them to be... if it weren't true Archer/Thrower-Mages would be the best offensive pvp template.

        Tank-mages have existed even before AoS before spell-channeling was a thing. never been a game-breaking problem except the two times Parry was usable by them... (2004-2007 & 2018-present)

      Dexer = majority of damage is from a weapon-based source (Swords,Mace,Fencing,Archery & Throwing).

      Mage =  majority of damage is from spell-based source (Magery)

     Under those classifications, playing a dexer is useless, all because of Parry+Magery combination being so easy to achieve, allowing the mage to have such a low chance of being hit thus allowing so many spells to go off.

      you can easily make a tank-mage without parry (I have a few).   but then you won't have evasion to protect you against mages.   so sync dumps from casters (cause spells don't miss) is the only real threat.

      to answer the OP's question.

      Bokuto-Mage aka Parry-evade-mage is by far the best pvp template for the last ~5 years or so.
      It has the greatest offense & the greatest defense, the most reliable source of damage (spells cause they don't miss) and Parry to further protect you from any non-spell-based interruptions/damage..    -If you're thinking that's the dumbest garbage you've ever heard, you're right.   it's needed a fix for a very long time, was easily foreseen & warned about (by yours truly, and several others) when the last 'pvp' changes were being tested. ~2018

    Yoshi said:
    "yes watch me warrior someone to death 2 v 1
    i only cast one spell at the end when they are redlined, target is not even cursed...."


        Honestly the only surprising part of that video to me is that you found 2 people that don't have parry.   That's honestly the most shocking part, the rest of it was pretty much exactly what anyone who's pvp'd in UO within the last several years would expect.

    • Tank Mages were never a problem, because they had a tough line to follow between mana and dexterity. As we all agree, power creep has blown this away, they can now have both the Dex and the Int, to have it all, in a way Mages cannot. I keep saying this, Mages cannot utilise all the stats, properties, skills given by power creep, in the way warriors can.
    • Nerfing Pure Mages, by putting Parry into the Pure Mage list of skills, has in fact taken out 80 Stats from a Mage, that they desperately need in Int. {There has been no such corresponding Nerf to Warriors}.
    • You say the only thing you are surprised about here, is that he found 2 characters without Parry? You are not however surprised that the Swords skill just ripped a character apart in less than 10 seconds? I cannot identify the exact list of abilities used, but guessing at Nerve Strike, Armour Ignore (x2?), couple of Hit Lightning Procs and a Supernova potion. So you are now saying - you are not surprised a Warrior can rip a character apart in this manner? Yet you are trying to get rid of Parry - so Warriors can rip all characters apart like this? Can you not see, based upon this, how players may feel FORCED to run Parry as a defence against this? Back to my point - make it so we don't feel forced to use Parry. Don't just nerf Parry - because if you do - this fight, and death under 10 seconds is the outcome - you know it as well as I do.
    • If you want to say to me, this was a Mage that did this - please identify the casted Mage spells that were used to achieve this? [The quality of the video on my screen is poor, and I am finding it hard to read or see the precise abilities used].
    • Your Definition - " Dexer = majority of damage is from a weapon-based source (Swords,Mace,Fencing,Archery & Throwing)." Clearly the majority of the damage was from Swords weapon based damage - therefore we are both completely clear this character is a warrior?
    • My analysis - when you have a template that is 5/6, or 5/7 on its way down a pure warrior tree, and only 2/6 or 2/7 mage skills - again, this is a warrior, with mage supporting skills.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,303
    edited May 2023
    Yoshi said:
    “ @ Rorscharch   will tell you that nobody uses a bokuto
    its why he closed the nerve strike debuff bug thread?
    so now he make everyone download third party client for fix issue if u want to fight one of these super rare people who use a bokuto.. but nah you’ll never get nerve striked, nothing to see here.

    i guess all the bots farming in fan dancer dojo on every shard 23/7 are doing it for the gold…and not the bokuto

    i ask him many times to share his elite tactic for dealing with being nerve striked but he don’t share.
    It’s funny cos I don’t see his name in the last pvp tourney.. 
    he must just be so good that he don’t need to enter”



    Without getting into the politics - the one point I completely agree with you on - is Nerve Strike should have a debuff icon.

    To me, this is obvious.

    I do also agree, the whole usage of buffs/debuffs is important, so we know what is going on.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,303
    edited May 2023
    CovenantX said:

     

      to answer the OP's question.

      Bokuto-Mage aka Parry-evade-mage is by far the best pvp template for the last ~5 years or so.
      It has the greatest offense & the greatest defense, the most reliable source of damage (spells cause they don't miss) and Parry to further protect you from any non-spell-based interruptions/damage..    -If you're thinking that's the dumbest garbage you've ever heard, you're right.   it's needed a fix for a very long time, was easily foreseen & warned about (by yours truly, and several others) when the last 'pvp' changes were being tested. ~2018
        

    In the video - I fail to see how Parry helped that Swords Warrior (with Mage support skill), produce all the damage he inflicted. Nerve Strike, Armour Ignore (x2), Hit Lightning (from weapon) Proc x 2, Supernova potion. No mage ability there, and none of that enhanced or made OP by Parry - that was all pure Swords warrior skills.

    I also fail to see - how from the Victims perspective - not having Parry helped him in any way at all. I bet he was wishing he had Parry. 

    The greatest Offence, in that video, came from the Warrior abilities - and this is how it is in PvP day in, and day out.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    "I am actually fairly happy with how balanced things are to be honest, I don't think bok mage is massively OP. There are a lot of good different templates, alchemy is hot right now.

    Here's 2 x bok mages trying to kill a char without parry

      "

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  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,303
    edited May 2023
    CovenantX said:

      Bokuto-Mage aka Parry-evade-mage 

    I've got an issue with your Naming here also.

    They are not the same thing.

    The Parry Evade Mage came first. They did not use Weapons in general, they used the parry evade as a running defensive measure (spamming Confidence as they ran). Yes it was boring, yes it was OP in some aspects. But they were at least more Mage-Like. I had no issues with these being nerfed as such, as their running all day long got boring.

    This Bokuto-Mage (Warrior), came about after (it is also the progression after Parry Evade Mages got nerfed), as more and more stats became available to make this possible, and Warriors realised they had so much Mana and Dex, they could now add Magery to their template - using the Bokuto, a really fast weapon with incredible Specials - and they now had so much Mana, they could spam these specials all day long. If you look at Mervyn's video - he is switching between at least 2 weapons on his Warrior during this fight.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,303
    edited May 2023
    Yoshi said:
    "I am actually fairly happy with how balanced things are to be honest, I don't think bok mage is massively OP. There are a lot of good different templates, alchemy is hot right now.

    Here's 2 x bok mages trying to kill a char without parry

      "


    I personally do not care about Bok Mage warriors also.

    As long as I have Parry :)
    What gets me though, is how Covenant keeps trying to nerf Parry, and mages even further.

    What I am not happy about, is lack of pure mages, if it's carrying a weapon, it's a warrior for me, I'd like to see more pure mages, I'm aware of Alchemy atm, we also use this. I get bored everyone has to have parry - On my pure mages, I'd like to not have it (Or I'd like the 80 Dex penalty removed so I have more Mana to use), and use the points into more mana, and more mage based skills - such as Alchemy...

    By the way, I cannot see your videos clearly, I do not know why.
    Edit - I can see it now, I cannot tell who is against who :)
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 928
    Cookie said:

    • Tank Mages were never a problem, because they had a tough line to follow between mana and dexterity. As we all agree, power creep has blown this away, they can now have both the Dex and the Int, to have it all, in a way Mages cannot. I keep saying this, Mages cannot utilise all the stats, properties, skills given by power creep, in the way warriors can.
    • Nerfing Pure Mages, by putting Parry into the Pure Mage list of skills, has in fact taken out 80 Stats from a Mage, that they desperately need in Int. {There has been no such corresponding Nerf to Warriors}.
    • You say the only thing you are surprised about here, is that he found 2 characters without Parry? You are not however surprised that the Swords skill just ripped a character apart in less than 10 seconds? I cannot identify the exact list of abilities used, but guessing at Nerve Strike, Armour Ignore (x2?), couple of Hit Lightning Procs and a Supernova potion. So you are now saying - you are not surprised a Warrior can rip a character apart in this manner? Yet you are trying to get rid of Parry - so Warriors can rip all characters apart like this? Can you not see, based upon this, how players may feel FORCED to run Parry as a defence against this? Back to my point - make it so we don't feel forced to use Parry. Don't just nerf Parry - because if you do - this fight, and death under 10 seconds is the outcome - you know it as well as I do.
    • If you want to say to me, this was a Mage that did this - please identify the casted Mage spells that were used to achieve this? [The quality of the video on my screen is poor, and I am finding it hard to read or see the precise abilities used].
    • Your Definition - " Dexer = majority of damage is from a weapon-based source (Swords,Mace,Fencing,Archery & Throwing)." Clearly the majority of the damage was from Swords weapon based damage - therefore we are both completely clear this character is a warrior?
    • My analysis - when you have a template that is 5/6, or 5/7 on its way down a pure warrior tree, and only 2/6 or 2/7 mage skills - again, this is a warrior, with mage supporting skills.

        1)  We partially agree, Powercreep allowed the use of parry with very little or No sacrifice.
              The Extra Stats (dex) on  a mage isn't needed for anything else they use, the bokuto for instance, swings at cap speed with 90 dex and ZERO SSI, or 10 dex and 35 SSI, both are incredibly easy to reach, and dexers would already have more dex/stamina than that. and what do they get?   1 second off bandage speed, same damage (maybe 2-3 points of raw wep damage with 120 tactics on the bokuto)  it's just stupid.

       2) a pure mage isn't nerfed if Parry is nerfed.    Parry shouldn't be usable at it's full potential on any spell-caster, especially not Magery.    because less interruptions = better offense, clearly they have unmatched defense cause dexers are almost not existent.

      3) Yes I was surprised that there were 2 players without Parry,   I'm not surprised that an archer died to 4 weapon hits and a supernova.   those dexers obviously didn't have Parry, the archer literally only took one shot (the dismount) after a double strike,3 nervestrikes it's not that hard to land 4 hits in a row against someone without Parry, the hard part is staying close to them and stopping them from healing.   I don't see why it's surprising a tank-mage dextroyed an archer with 3 weapon hits (4 if you count the dbl strike as 2) and a super nova....  I also wouldn't be surprised if the gargoyle either died or ran away after the video ended, would you?   I kill people 2v1 all the time most of which is done without Parry on mage templates.   if you look, parry didn't even proc during the clip @Yoshi ; posted.     Also, a 10 second fight where a dexer wins, doesn't happen anymore.   because parry prevents it, if the RNG of hit/dodge does not..  you're using an example of a Tank-mage fighting 2 people that clearly do not have parry as a reason not to nerf Parry... yet the parry-mage won?   what the f**k are you smoking?

     4) a 10 second clip of fight that had lightening cast twice (one used to kill),... against 2 non-parry/evade templates is obviously not enough of an example to base any change on.  I've already laid out enough examples as to why parry is broken when paired with Magery.

     5) again, your using a small example against 2 non-parry templates, It's 4 hits in a row (counting dbl strike as 2) and a cast lightening for the finish.   the part that you are ignoring is that neither of those dexers were even swinging at @Yoshi, the dismount was literally the only attack that went off against him.  until after the archer was dead... lol.

     6)  you can play a tank-mage or any "weapon user' as a dexer, especially when your damage comes from the fastest hardest hitting weapon in the game (bokuto) cause 80% of it;s damage is Direct damage & hit-spell, the weapon itself hits for 6-12 damage (60-120 tactics)... the bokuto is also broken, but that's small potatoes compared to how much extra benefit Parry allows mages to have.

     7) I fully understand your 'definition' and it makes some sense as far the skill break-down, the problem is Magery only requires Magery & Eval-int, that combo (with a mage weapon or any defensive weapon skill/wrestling (even parry without a weapon skill)) can beat any template in UO if you're good enough at interrupting casters.   trust me, I've done it.  

    in fact, for the longest time I played a Focus-mage (non Parry) in a suit that was 45 DCI and 44 (120 Resisting Spells) in resistances and dexers were Always easy to beat unless fighting 2 or more of them while dismounted*  (i had hiding without smoke-bombs (ninja breaks focus spec)

      1 mage that was half decent could easily out-damage my healing because again. 44 in all resistances fireball hits for 30-36 damage roughly, and being 44 in all resistances there's no need for curse either, but people would still use it, because who the fuck would ever use a suit like that?   (I would, because it's doable)...  it's possible on a dexer, and I did start to make a suit like that for a dexer,, but far less likely you'd ever actually win because any hit is going to kill bandage healing, and with far fewer interruptions because of missing & parry, it's just not going to be reliable enough to work. so I lost all interest in that.   but the 44 mage suit is still usable.
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 928
    edited May 2023

    Cookie said:

    In the video - I fail to see how Parry helped that Swords Warrior (with Mage support skill), produce all the damage he inflicted. Nerve Strike, Armour Ignore (x2), Hit Lightning (from weapon) Proc x 2, Supernova potion. No mage ability there, and none of that enhanced or made OP by Parry - that was all pure Swords warrior skills.

    I also fail to see - how from the Victims perspective - not having Parry helped him in any way at all. I bet he was wishing he had Parry. 

    The greatest Offence, in that video, came from the Warrior abilities - and this is how it is in PvP day in, and day out.
       What are you talking about?
     
      the only damage produced in that video was 1 Double strike (2 hits), 2 Nerve Strikes, 1 Super Nova and a casted lightening...   The Armor Ignores all came from the gargoyle against @Yoshi 's Horse... neither of the 2 'dexers' he was fighting did any damage to him short of the initial dismount and the disarm after the archer had died in the end of the clip.

     the victim (archer) wouldn't benefit from Parry because that would be stupid (I'm glad the devs didn't Mr Magoo that too).. not as bad as mages using it, but pretty close.

     The greatest offense is always from spells, unless you're fighting only non-parry templates.   then it can be more balanced and either weapons/spells are viable, clearly without any in-coming attacks in that clip he could have just  as easily opted to explode fsx2 lightening that archer within the approximate same time-frame, though it would have opened him up slightly to the gargoyles attacks which clearly he got annoyed by the horse stand-blocking, otherwise the horse would have been dead a good 3-4 sec sooner.

    Cookie said:
    Yoshi said:
    "I am actually fairly happy with how balanced things are to be honest, I don't think bok mage is massively OP. There are a lot of good different templates, alchemy is hot right now.

    Here's 2 x bok mages trying to kill a char without parry

      "


    I personally do not care about Bok Mage warriors also.

    As long as I have Parry :)
    What gets me though, is how Covenant keeps trying to nerf Parry, and mages even further.

    What I am not happy about, is lack of pure mages, if it's carrying a weapon, it's a warrior for me, I'd like to see more pure mages, I'm aware of Alchemy atm, we also use this. I get bored everyone has to have parry - On my pure mages, I'd like to not have it (Or I'd like the 80 Dex penalty removed so I have more Mana to use), and use the points into more mana, and more mage based skills - such as Alchemy...

    By the way, I cannot see your videos clearly, I do not know why.
    Edit - I can see it now, I cannot tell who is against who :)
       I'm glad to see @Yoshi posted a video of how a non-Parry-mage can destroy any template with/without Parry (if they can kill a mage, they can definitely kill a dexer), I'm sure you could do it without protection too, it would obviously take longer, but definitely do able. 

        @Cookie,  I also advocated for the Dex requirement to be removed from Parry.  but not without Parry being cut down by ~30-50% in block chance when paired with Magery. 
      
     There is no situation where someone would choose Alchemy over Parry if Parry isn't balanced properly.  there are many many people that have both though. you can thank powercreep & the inherent LMC bonuses for that (not much need for Meditation skill anymore)

     Refinements are also a slight issue, because it causes direct damage to be even more relied upon.
    and makes curse almost essential even for non-casters to deal enough non-direct damage... If they can land any hits to begin with.
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
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