LRC and PVP Idea

Lieutenant_Dan

To OP.  No more nerfs to mages.  The class has been beaten into the ground for 15 years straight.  Just stop.

If you want reagents back in game then do this.
When using reagents to cast a magery spell (instead of lrc) then the limitations on casting speed and sdi for pvp is removed.  This would allow the mage class to cast at 4/6 speeds with unlimited sdi for pvp and pvm. (but only if they are not wearing an LRC suit)

Lieutenant_Dan

Of course a blessed reagent pouch / belt that acts the same as the first aid belt is still needed even if they don't make any of the suggested changes mentioned in this thread.

Yoshi

“This may be a CRAZY suggestion.

But how about you just require the reagent in your backpack..
but if you’re 100 LRC it doesn’t consume it.

“

bryweyh007

My biggest argument about using potions to Invis, apples to remove curse, and all the counter consumables is that they take up a lot of weight...not to mention every weapon in the arsenal used to fight several different tactics. I cant use one weapons to do all the specials I use.  I've been in several hundred mage vs Warrior duels where the mage just spams poison/curse as a tactic to deplete potions/apples. I don't bother using Resisting Spells because I find it more useful to recover mana for increased DPS. 

The argument about swings not costing stamina is laughable. You lose a lot of stamina already just chasing a target because you are running through other players to try and land a hit. Consuming stamina for every swing would make it hard to have any stamina left over.

Just because you reach the target for a fraction of a second doesn't mean you will swing at the target...usually you have to be lucky to land a hit that fast. SO the tactic a lot of warrior do is nerve strike, or splinter to try and stay with their target.

Having to have 80 dex as a requirement for parry probably shouldn't work as well as it does anyways. If a dexxer just had 80 dex he would still get ate up because he can't block as fast as the attacker swings. WHy should a mage have the benefits with 1/2 the dex stacked.

Funny how you mention you need 210 mana pool as a mage and cant throw anything into dex but that, my friend, is BS and you know it. If you are hurting for mana then find it on some armor. most items looted in the game have INT increases vs Dex and Str so you could wrework your stats just like the rest of us. Plan and simple.

Your argument about warriors being able pre-cast their primary/secondary ability and travel screens away failed IMO....Warriors can't run up on someone and instantly do damage from the weapon ability they have chosen. Mages, you see, can do instant damage to their target with a pre-casted spell and it can be a ranged attack. Warriors don't have anything worth comparing to mages pre-casting spells.

Cookie

bryweyh007 said:

A. My biggest argument about using potions to Invis, apples to remove curse, and all the counter consumables is that they take up a lot of weight...not to mention every weapon in the arsenal used to fight several different tactics. I cant use one weapons to do all the specials I use.  I've been in several hundred mage vs Warrior duels where the mage just spams poison/curse as a tactic to deplete potions/apples. I don't bother using Resisting Spells because I find it more useful to recover mana for increased DPS. 

B. The argument about swings not costing stamina is laughable. You lose a lot of stamina already just chasing a target because you are running through other players to try and land a hit. Consuming stamina for every swing would make it hard to have any stamina left over.

C. Just because you reach the target for a fraction of a second doesn't mean you will swing at the target...usually you have to be lucky to land a hit that fast. SO the tactic a lot of warrior do is nerve strike, or splinter to try and stay with their target.

D. Having to have 80 dex as a requirement for parry probably shouldn't work as well as it does anyways. If a dexxer just had 80 dex he would still get ate up because he can't block as fast as the attacker swings. WHy should a mage have the benefits with 1/2 the dex stacked.

E. Funny how you mention you need 210 mana pool as a mage and cant throw anything into dex but that, my friend, is BS and you know it. If you are hurting for mana then find it on some armor. most items looted in the game have INT increases vs Dex and Str so you could wrework your stats just like the rest of us. Plan and simple.

F. Your argument about warriors being able pre-cast their primary/secondary ability and travel screens away failed IMO....Warriors can't run up on someone and instantly do damage from the weapon ability they have chosen. Mages, you see, can do instant damage to their target with a pre-casted spell and it can be a ranged attack. Warriors don't have anything worth comparing to mages pre-casting spells.

A. So you are not prepared to carry the consumables that would help your situation - but instead want to force Mages to carry 8 stacks of reagents (as well as all the other consumables we do carry)? Bit hypocritical? Because you are too lazy to play properly, you want to downgrade everyone else?

B. Mages also lose Stamina chasing targets, no difference. It is not laughable - it is just a pure 1 for 1 game mechanics balancing fix. You have Greater Refresh potions for this, you also have the Chiv spell - again, mages do not have the equal means to regain Mana, that warriors have for regaining Stamina - bearing in mind we have all lost Meditation for PArry, which really hurts by the way, I don't think any of you realise how much Mana issues Parry mages have, they are almost useless imo.

C. Well, you need to get used to timing it, and pressing the button at the correct moment then, like Mages do. You see how simple you have it as a warrior? You have to do absolutely nothing. So not only do you need to lose Stamina per hit to match mages, you DO also need to physically press a button, for every single little swing you do, like mages have to, AND you have to time it corrcetly - oh the hardship, welcome to a mages world.

D. I do not understand this comment - I believe Dex and Parry work equally for a mage and a dexxer - ie a Dexxer with 80 Dex, is still blocking as well as a mage with 80 Dex?

E. This is not BS. I run a mage with 210 mana, and he can pvp properly, in the group fights I get into - fielding, and area spells take a huge amount of mana. He gets ripped apart though, it is not possible to pvp well without Parry. So in come the parry mages, and their 150 mana, cannot do the job. You talk about poison spam - it sometimes takes me 30 poison attempts to land a Poison against a 120 resist target with scripted cures - again - you not having Resisting spells is entirely your own fault - you are whining because you do not build proper templates, you do not carry the required comsumables, and you just want complete easy mode. Poison lock - is basically the only lock a mage has - and it has been nerfed into oblivion with orange petals, cure potions, resisting spells, and scripted cures. We cannot just explode flamestrike a dexxer to death when it takes 30/150 of his HP, and by the time you have loaded up the next round he is fully healed - as a mage, you are clearly going to run out of mana fast, so yes, you need the poison lock. Against people using scripted cures - yes, I spam poison 100 times as a fight opener, to wear down their supplies - but all that spamming, does not do any consequential damage, it is for annoyance mainly. I need to carry more Shatter potions, obviously.

F. Yes they can, I do it all the time? Set armour ignore special from miles away, come in, land it, boom. Yes there is RNG, but again, we all have to deal with that - see poison vs resisting spells, a dire percentage of them land.

In summary - if you are not using consumables, and are not using Resisting spells - why are we even having this conversation? And you are tryng to nerf Mages down to your level of play?

Cookie

And by the way - Resisting spells to a mage, is every bit as annoying as Parry to a warrior. So don't keep going on about it. People going on about Parry, have absolutely no leg to stand on.

Yet even having said that, I'd still love to not have to use Parry, so I can use something else.

Grimbeard

The only obvious solution is to unnerf ninja

CovenantX

Cookie said:

A. So you are not prepared to carry the consumables that would help your situation - but instead want to force Mages to carry 8 stacks of reagents (as well as all the other consumables we do carry)? Bit hypocritical? Because you are too lazy to play properly, you want to downgrade everyone else?

B. Mages also lose Stamina chasing targets, no difference. It is not laughable - it is just a pure 1 for 1 game mechanics balancing fix. You have Greater Refresh potions for this, you also have the Chiv spell - again, mages do not have the equal means to regain Mana, that warriors have for regaining Stamina - bearing in mind we have all lost Meditation for PArry, which really hurts by the way, I don't think any of you realise how much Mana issues Parry mages have, they are almost useless imo.

C. Well, you need to get used to timing it, and pressing the button at the correct moment then, like Mages do. You see how simple you have it as a warrior? You have to do absolutely nothing. So not only do you need to lose Stamina per hit to match mages, you DO also need to physically press a button, for every single little swing you do, like mages have to, AND you have to time it corrcetly - oh the hardship, welcome to a mages world.

D. I do not understand this comment - I believe Dex and Parry work equally for a mage and a dexxer - ie a Dexxer with 80 Dex, is still blocking as well as a mage with 80 Dex?

E. This is not BS. I run a mage with 210 mana, and he can pvp properly, in the group fights I get into - fielding, and area spells take a huge amount of mana. He gets ripped apart though, it is not possible to pvp well without Parry. So in come the parry mages, and their 150 mana, cannot do the job. You talk about poison spam - it sometimes takes me 30 poison attempts to land a Poison against a 120 resist target with scripted cures - again - you not having Resisting spells is entirely your own fault - you are whining because you do not build proper templates, you do not carry the required comsumables, and you just want complete easy mode. Poison lock - is basically the only lock a mage has - and it has been nerfed into oblivion with orange petals, cure potions, resisting spells, and scripted cures. We cannot just explode flamestrike a dexxer to death when it takes 30/150 of his HP, and by the time you have loaded up the next round he is fully healed - as a mage, you are clearly going to run out of mana fast, so yes, you need the poison lock. Against people using scripted cures - yes, I spam poison 100 times as a fight opener, to wear down their supplies - but all that spamming, does not do any consequential damage, it is for annoyance mainly. I need to carry more Shatter potions, obviously.

F. Yes they can, I do it all the time? Set armour ignore special from miles away, come in, land it, boom. Yes there is RNG, but again, we all have to deal with that - see poison vs resisting spells, a dire percentage of them land.

In summary - if you are not using consumables, and are not using Resisting spells - why are we even having this conversation? And you are tryng to nerf Mages down to your level of play?

     A-  Carrying capacity has nothing to do with parry being OP AF on Mage templates, and affects 100% of all dexer templates.   besides, dexers carry more weight in equipment, arrows (bandaids if they have healing skill) and several weapons to use a variety of specials.  so in that sense, most mages can carry more consumables because they don't need more than 2-3 weapons. like dexers do.

    B-  Mages lose stamina by chasing targets ?  maybe if you try to melee attack (with a weapon) like the guy you quoted says the dexer deals with.... no one loses stamina for chasing people until they 'push you out of the way' which is NOT always close enough to trigger a 'swing'.

  

    C-  Timing on a Mage vs the RNG of a dexer is like the only thing that has any merit, the problem is a good mage (someone with good timing) is better than a dexer can even potentially be.   so if you take the time to learn playing a mage, you should beat dexers more often than they beat you and that goes the same for mages without Parry skill. 

    D-  Parry & Dex do function the same for a Mage as they do for a Dexer.... but mages benefit from it more because dexers are the only thing parry affects negatively.   No dexer has parry to fight other dexers, they have parry + Bushido in order to survive 2 or more mages that would instantly kill them if they didn't evade half the spells, that's why most  Mages have parry/evade now too btw..  it's nearly 100% of the pvp chars you'd ever see anymore.

    E- That's what I was waiting for-   Why the hell would you have Parry, if you're group fighting behind a bunch of fields?   and then you complain you used half your mana and have nothing to use to kill the attackers?   maybe just kill the attackers instead of wasting all your mana on fields if you have parry you literally only have to worry about other Mages.

 as far as the 'poison lock' against a dexer, if you re-curse a dexer if they apple it, you shouldn't even need poison unless they're healing with spells, cause Bandaids are only good for healing if the dexer is able to interrupt at least 1 spell every 6 seconds, and a well-timed poison (even if they're script-cure potting) would still eat the bandaid instead of instantly being cured by the potion.  -btw, a non-focus mage (with 20 SDI can cause bandage slips with close-range harm to a cursed target, like 40% of the time... and harm can Easily be cast between 1.25s swings, if they miss once, you can get 2 off and have a third harm ready before the next attack. so you're grasping at straws here too.  Fireball is the same for causing bandages to slip.  Refinements can mostly prevent this, but lightening would still cause bandages to slip vs a cursed target unless they use refined energy & are an elf, to stay at 70 energy resist.  -after 2 slips of a bandage, it heals less than most mini heals from magery does.... also, mages could have healing too if they wanted, but Parry is far superior to healing, so they'd never opt for healing over Parry... although I have fought against healing mages mostly without Parry, but I've seen a couple with parry and they should never die one vs one to Any template, (dexers should just kill themselves instead of waste time fighting against that) & played a healing-mage before parry was so stupid OP.

  F- Armor ignore can miss, and it misses far more often than it hits when everyone has Parry on top of the already 50/50 defense from a weapon skill.   Weapon hits don't need to be reliable, they need to do enough damage when they DO hit though,  Now they don't do enough damage AND they don't hit often enough.   with very few exceptions on the 'damage' front.

  After Curse, Flame Strike does more than an armor ignore btw.  can't miss. sure it takes a slight bit longer to cast, but it's likely landed with an explosion which is basically an armor ignore worth of damage as well.,, then add the spell range on top of it.   mana cost is irrelevant because dexers can't use their mana on offense if they can't hit and they can't stay close enough to even attempt to hit.

  I think Parry chance should be cut in half when used with "spell channeling" items (shields & weapons obv)  Or, cut Parry chance in half if Magery = 40.0 or higher.

 on rare occasion I parry with mages that don't even have parry, and also run 10-20 dex (all dex beyond 10 is item bonus on 100% of my mage templates)

 the problem is only when magery templates get enough defense (by adding Parry) to get their spells off ~70%+ of the time,  it's even easier for them to get spells off against a non-caster if they don't stand still and let the RNG roll at the maximum rate, which no one does and no one should be expected to.do.

CovenantX

Cookie said:
Not forgetting the obvious of course, Mages have to stand still like sitting ducks to cast anything - which is basically giving away free hits, which then equals, bleed, so no more casting, splinter, so forced walk, more hits incoming, once a mage it hit, that' pretty much it.

Dexxers also sync.

How about we address the real issues without keep Nerfing Mages?

1. Warriors Autohit - this should be keyed - the same as Mages have to.
2. Warriors have NO cost when hitting - should be a Stamina Cost - the same as Mages face with Mana.
3. Warriors have not had their Damage increase nerfed by at least 20%.
4. Warriors through power creep, can use ALL the added available stats given to them, meaning they have access to everything - max hit speed (Dex), max damage (Str) and More Specials (Mana) - whilst Mages have been forced into using Parry to survive all of this - meaning we have been completely Nerfed, as any related nerf to parry has a direct knock-on effect to mages. Mages have no Beneficial use for the 84 Dexterity we are forced to have for Parry, which we are Forced to have because Warriors are completely broken through power-creep.
5. Warriors have not had their Mana-pool Nerfed. If they run Parry - they should lose 35% of their Mana that they use for so many increased Specials.

But finally - for the REAL fix.
How about give an Attractive proposition for Mages to not REQUIRE Parry, then we can drop it, and get everything that has been taken away from us back.
1. 20% SDI reduction.
2. 35% Manapool reduction.
3. Lost opportunity to have a more fun mage related skill.

    Warriors & Mages literally both have "auto-hit" whether it be with wrestling or a weapon. so you again, make no sense.

   Warriors have no cost when hitting, they have a negligent amount of damage done too if they don't spend mana on a special, that's if they can even land a hit to begin with... What's your point?

  actually, dexers were hit with the biggest damage reduction out of everything in UO.

  right here - game launch up until AoS   Now AoS -current Base weapon damage was basically cut in half for weaker weapons and cut by about 30-40% on the slowest weapons just due to changes AoS brought in to the way "Damage Increase" works.    So you're full of shit when you say mages have been nerfed harder than dexers, it's literally never been the case.

Grimbeard

Again the dog archers glare at everyone crying about nerf

Yoshi

“stop arguing about parry in thread about reagents pls.

Let us consider some things:
if you have 100 LRC you still need 10 gold in tithing in chivalry book even though it’s not consumed.

if you use archery and there is lower ammo cost on quiver you still need arrow present to fire even if it’s not consumed.

if you run poison mastery, there is chance no poison is consumed, - but you still need to use a poison potion on the weap.

so should need to carry 1 reagent, even though not consumed”

Cookie

Yoshi said:

“stop arguing about parry in thread about reagents pls.

Let us consider some things:
if you have 100 LRC you still need 10 gold in tithing in chivalry book even though it’s not consumed.

if you use archery and there is lower ammo cost on quiver you still need arrow present to fire even if it’s not consumed.

if you run poison mastery, there is chance no poison is consumed, - but you still need to use a poison potion on the weap.

so should need to carry 1 reagent, even though not consumed”

I'm done with discussing Parry with Covenant, we have both said our piece, I cannot say anymore without going around in circles.

I did also try to cover all points on the original topic. I was against it.

So, onto this specific point. 

Honestly, I just don't see the point really, it's a really small adjustment that does barely anything, it just adds for the sake of it. I think we need less if this in our lives. Less complication, less process. When I build systems, Simplicity is everything, when you walk out, other people have to run them, and they won't be resilient or last if they are too complicated or time consuming.

Yoshi

"well, it could make stealing more viable template, - if people are only going to carry less than whatever the weight limit is for stealing.

And it will enable you to disable killed mages on the field, or at least increase their recovery time if they have to ask guild mates for certain reagents.

It also wouldn't affect trammel players at all as they can't be looted (well only by monsters but they can get it back)

Bearing in mind, we used to play with 0% LRC"

Cookie

I've got no problem, if we are all in the same boat, but we wouldn't be?

Warriors all have first aid belts lined up, straight back into the fight, archers with quivers, tamers with first aid belts, paladins with a tithed book with gold in it - even sampires have arcane clothing.

Its like people are suggesting we only wind the clock back for the mages?

CovenantX

Cookie said:
I'm done with discussing Parry with Covenant, we have both said our piece, I cannot say anymore without going around in circles.

I did also try to cover all points on the original topic. I was against it.

   You're no fun.    I just want to  point out, your playstyle doesn't even make sense to have parry to begin with, and you acknowledged that a Dexer can't beat a parry-mage and you didn't think they Should be able too.  That is not true for any other combination of skills,  Parry-mages can beat anything they go up against assuming they're not drastically outplayed by a more skillful mage (or in UO's case, a better cheater), seems to me that's as close to the definition of Overpowered as you can get.  Anyway...

Cookie said:

I've got no problem, if we are all in the same boat, but we wouldn't be?

Warriors all have first aid belts lined up, straight back into the fight, archers with quivers, tamers with first aid belts, paladins with a tithed book with gold in it - even sampires have arcane clothing.

Its like people are suggesting we only wind the clock back for the mages?

  First aid belts and quivers do not equate to LRC because you still need to restock both quivers and first-aid belts because they do eventually run out...Arcane Clothing also runs out of charges so they're also in the same boat.

However, I do agree for the most part that LRC shouldn't be changed, especially when there are more game-breaking things that need fixed or changed in some way that should be top priorities....  judging by the last couple years it seems that almost Nothing can even reach 'Top Priority" anymore.

Merus

CovenantX said:

Cookie said:
I'm done with discussing Parry with Covenant, we have both said our piece, I cannot say anymore without going around in circles.

I did also try to cover all points on the original topic. I was against it.

   You're no fun.    I just want to  point out, your playstyle doesn't even make sense to have parry to begin with, and you acknowledged that a Dexer can't beat a parry-mage and you didn't think they Should be able too.  That is not true for any other combination of skills,  Parry-mages can beat anything they go up against assuming they're not drastically outplayed by a more skillful mage (or in UO's case, a better cheater), seems to me that's as close to the definition of Overpowered as you can get.  Anyway...

Cookie said:

I've got no problem, if we are all in the same boat, but we wouldn't be?

Warriors all have first aid belts lined up, straight back into the fight, archers with quivers, tamers with first aid belts, paladins with a tithed book with gold in it - even sampires have arcane clothing.

Its like people are suggesting we only wind the clock back for the mages?

  First aid belts and quivers do not equate to LRC because you still need to restock both quivers and first-aid belts because they do eventually run out...Arcane Clothing also runs out of charges so they're also in the same boat.

However, I do agree for the most part that LRC shouldn't be changed, especially when there are more game-breaking things that need fixed or changed in some way that should be top priorities....  judging by the last couple years it seems that almost Nothing can even reach 'Top Priority" anymore.

Unless you’re bagballing vorpal bunnies… sorry, couldn’t resist.

The moment you start requiring mages, mystics, or necromancers to carry regs you’re going to get requests for a blessed reagent bag so that your reagents can’t be lost or stolen.  Let’s just leave this alone.

Yoshi

"I doubt it, if you're carrying 1 of each reg, in the rare case that you die and a monster happens to  loot a certain reg/s, you could just kill the monster with different spells that don't require that reg.

That is why different spells require different reagents and not all just one reagent..

everyone forgotten we used to play with 0LRC"

Yoshi

"you could even push the boat out and carry a whole 2 of each reg, 2 different piles...problem solved (if the first solution wasn't good enough)"

Cookie

Yoshi said:

"you could even push the boat out and carry a whole 2 of each reg, 2 different piles...problem solved (if the first solution wasn't good enough)"

Bigger issues, surely ?