Easy solution to help out pure warriors

Pure sword and board cannot get the -10 mana reduction for special moves easily.  
With 240  in weapon and parry we still need 60 points. 

By pure I mean 120 each Wep/Tact/Anat/Heal/Resist/Parry

I have been using 60 Poison (by adding 60 skills to jewelry) but was thinking
how nice it would be to get more out of the new Whip weapon (and 60 dedicated
points) with the Whirlwind special move.

Whirlwind needs Bushido to be stronger but with Bushido, Parry is severely penalized
with a one hand weapon/shield setup.  

Solution is to make Bushido or Ninjitsu give the Whirlwind bonus. Similar moves are
Armor Pierce, Feint, Frenzied Whirlwind and more.


Thank you for reading this and any input.

«1

Comments

  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,327
    edited February 20
    With up to 55LMC from suit and Mana regen from every hit.  What exactly is it you can not do?

    Most of my melee guys have 80 mana and they never run out because of leeches and their fast hits.

    Now My archer will get low on Mana after a few AI uses because he can not leech it back like my melee toons can.

    Are you not using Bushido?  The whip works with bushido if you don't use a shield.

    I have all 3 weapon skill warriors, which skill are you having trouble with? And want to use a shield?
  • NorryNorry Posts: 494
    Drop the shield, you have a higher chance to parry with bush with a 1 handed weapon without the shield. Or take nin and use FWW instead.
  • GraceGrace Posts: 144
    Thank you both for input.  I had posted the template above which is outfitted to use a shield, thus do not want bushido, and the mods that come with it. Thought a small boost to pure warriors have been requested on these forums before. 

    What is the negatives or positives to gameplay with this easy change? I guess that is more the question I was asking. I don't see any glaring negatives, unless you say it messes with pvp balance somehow, which I know nothing about.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,327
    Negative:
    The devs would have to reprogram how UO works,  so I doubt it would be done.

    If you do not want to use a skill then don't.  But you will not get the benefits from that skill.

    IMO a Swords warrior is way too easy to build anyway.  They do not need it easier.
    Try building with Macing or Archery and see how difficult those are to get good specials and speed.
  • GraceGrace Posts: 144
    If one has a Macer or a Fencer that wants to use the whip as described above it would still be the same issue.  An Archer does not use a shield so Bushido can only help an Archer. Weapon/Shield warriors are rare in the wild because of Bushido dominating most Warrior templates. 

    The point being, the one handed whip has a special on it that is buffed by a skill that penalizes parrying with a shield. People choose one handed weapons so they can use a shield and it's mods to complete their suit and for some, the look of the character itself.

    Feint special move is buffed by Bushido OR Ninjitsu, same as some other special moves as noted above.  

    But yes, if the devs would have to "reprogram how UO works" to make the Whirlwind special be buffed by Bushido OR Ninjitsu then obviously, forget it.

    I am not a programmer so I should not have assumed it would be an easy change.  Makes me wonder how they ever change anything though if that is the case. ;)







  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,196
    My swordswoman using a shield does fine I'd suggest one handed weapons need a base damage boost make a one hander with same base damage as axes..
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 1,269
    edited February 21
    @Grace - I think your request might fall into that bucket that Kyronix mentioned at the last M&G; basically there will be trade offs when template/suit building. I think the underlying design of whirlwind if that a player will sacrifice some parry protection in order to hit multiple targets / leeches (this is my best guess at least).

    So if they were to allow a 1 handed weapon with a shield to be as good as just a 1 handed weapon alone or 2 handed weapon then it becomes an obvious no brainer to run around with a shield spamming whirlwind with no drawback and the best protection. In addition, now players would not only benefit from additional parry protection while hitting all targets/leeching, but they would also receive any/all benefits from the shield (ie 10 SSI which is huge). 

    That said, I think that the originally request might be a little too OP once other things are factored in. Personally, I'd prefer that maybe a few weapons have their specials reconfigured so that more of weapons were usable; like the bardiche / viking sword comes to mind for swords (and like 80% of fencing weapons come into mind lol). I think that if some of these specials were reconfigured to be more "synergetic" with the weapon specials / mastery / speed / damage that might help with your issue of a pure warrior (at least as far as your options would go).
  • GraceGrace Posts: 144
    Thank you for the response and a lot of what you said makes sense. 

    People long have asked for Chivalry to count towards the mana reduction. If they did that I would take 60 Chivalry for the mana reduction and sacred journey and would not of felt the need to make this post.

    Since that is not an option we have to choose from these skills to be at 60:
    Swords, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Archery, Parrying, Lumberjacking, Stealth, Poisoning, Bushido and Ninjitsu

    Since using a shield, only poisoning and ninjitsu are viable candidates.  If using ninjitsu would have
    no real benefit, even a small one would be acceptable, to the pure warrior then it leaves only poison at 60 as a choice. The only benefit of that really is not having to carry poison petals.  Suppose that will have to do.

    This was really just trying to fix a hole in the pure warrior template, which by no means
    is overpowered.   Not a big deal if this can't be done if it would encourage too many
    people to be non bushido warriors and carry a shield.

    I agree weapons and specials need to be more synergetic.
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 1,269
    edited February 21
    I'd agree with you that another skill should be added to that list counting towards mana reduction. If anything I'd say healing or anatomy instead of Chiv (I think Chiv is technically a magic) so that a true warrior would get some benefit there. 

    Since that won't help you right now, in the meantime if memory serves me right I think that jewelry skills will count towards that 300pt mana reduction so that might be an option depending on what jewelry you might currently be using. While poisoning would give you some poison resistance if you aren't fighting something that poisons much (or since you are running 120 resist?) I'd suggest ninjitsu. 

    At 60 skill you can easily cast mirror image (20 min skill req) to divert melee attacks. You also can pretty reliably cast focus attack (30 min skill req) which would be great for doubling your leeches / spells (in addition to having the mana reduction from the 300pts). Both of these only cost 10 mana each (before LMC I believe). While mirror image will require you to be on foot, the focus attack can be used while mounted.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,327
    edited February 21
    Grace said:
    People long have asked for Chivalry to count towards the mana reduction. If they did that I would take 60 Chivalry for the mana reduction and sacred journey and would not of felt the need to make this post.

    Since that is not an option we have to choose from these skills to be at 60:
    Swords, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Archery, Parrying, Lumberjacking, Stealth, Poisoning, Bushido and Ninjitsu

    Like I said, I have never had any problem with mana or mana regen on a melee warrior especially if you can WW.

    You say most warriors have Bushido.  Now do a % as to how many are Swords.  

    Why? Swords have 2 weapons that are 2 handed that do AI,DS,WW.  Perfect for fighting in UO.
    Also their 1 hand weapons have more choices for these.

    For AI  Macing only has a 1 hand weapon. Fencing has both 2 and 1 hand.  But the swords weapons do more damage.

    For DS Swords has Double axe which also has WW. Mace has both 1 and 2 hand but they do less damage than the swords versions. Nunchaku is a joke.  Fencing has only a 2 hand weapon.  Again the swords versions do more damage.

    For WW Swords rules again. (All have whips which ill get into separately.) Macing has the War hammer which is high damage but really difficult to swing at max speed.  The Black staff is low damage.  Fencing has the Kama.  Very low damage.

    Whips.

    They had a chance to allow the other 2 melee skills catch up.

    But they did not put a second useful special on them.  They should have put AI or DS with the mace and fencing versions.  Again the swords version has Bleed which is not as bad as the others.
    Fencing has infectious strike which is good if you have poison skill.  But most do not.

    Also the first thing I brought up when the whip was on TC was they should have also made a 2 hand version of the whip that matched the double axe or bladed staffs damage and speed.

    That would have given mace and fencing a comparable WW weapon.

    Swords is easier to make because their weapons do more damage at a lower speed than the others do. So it is easier to get 150 strength on a swordsman and do even more damage than the others.

    Therefore is quite easy to make a swordsman using a 1 or 2 handed weapon.  That 10% mana is irrelevant. My swordsman has 55 mana and never runs out.

    I have a free slot that I use to do Shrine battles.  That toon has swords because it is the easiest and it uses a 1 hand weapon with a shield because like Kevin said, A good shield has stats that can accentuate your template.  I can make a new toon, put on skills, do 3 shrine battles, get credit on all the Captains, get a Tabard remove the GM skills, and delete him a week later, make a new one.

    The toon above does not have Bushido,  he uses Chiv for the EoO and Consecrate, which does not last long.  He also does not run out of mana he has 10 Intel before his suit.

    If they are going to change the code for UO then IMO they should make the weapons more equal for the 3 melee skills. So you see some Macers and Fencers.  Other than mine and PSFTWs.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,196
    It's not just that two handed weapons have higher base damage it's that they are nearly as fast as one handed now you can get to max ssi easy to make up for any slowness but one you're at 100 DI you're done in theory two handed weapons should be slower way way slower..
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,327
    edited February 21
    McDougle said:
    It's not just that two handed weapons have higher base damage it's that they are nearly as fast as one handed now you can get to max ssi easy to make up for any slowness but one you're at 100 DI you're done in theory two handed weapons should be slower way way slower..
    That only applies to Swords.  Try making a War hammer swing at max speed.(there are bows that swing faster).  There are no speed/damage equivalents for mace and fencing. 

    Swords has all the wanted specials on the best speed/damage weapons. 1 Hand or 2 hand.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,196
    Pawain said:
    McDougle said:
    It's not just that two handed weapons have higher base damage it's that they are nearly as fast as one handed now you can get to max ssi easy to make up for any slowness but one you're at 100 DI you're done in theory two handed weapons should be slower way way slower..
    That only applies to Swords.  Try making a War hammer swing at max speed.(there are bows that swing faster).  There are no speed/damage equivalents for mace and fencing. 

    Swords has all the wanted specials on the best speed/damage weapons. 1 Hand or 2 hand.
    I completely agree 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • GraceGrace Posts: 144
    Pawain thank you for sharing your opinions. 

    So you think that a 6 x 120 wep/tact/anat/heal/resist/parry character is so powerful
    already that they simply do not need the extra mana reduction.  Very well could be.

    Here I thought that Samps (and their offshoots) were king in UO.  All this time it has been my ole sword and board girl who gets around with recall scrolls.  I just gotta learn to play her better. 

    We need to spread the word to the Samps, they have been playing sub par templates!

     And the whips are still cool, but just too deadly should they get a small ww boost by swapping 60 poison for 60 ninjitsu.

    All is good, I will just stick with the 60 poison and get the full mana reduction.  And yes, it is noticeable when doing multiple armor ignores if you don't have full mana reduction, for me anyway.
    Glad you have no problem with it.


  • GraceGrace Posts: 144
    keven2002 said:
    I'd agree with you that another skill should be added to that list counting towards mana reduction. If anything I'd say healing or anatomy instead of Chiv (I think Chiv is technically a magic) so that a true warrior would get some benefit there. 

    Since that won't help you right now, in the meantime if memory serves me right I think that jewelry skills will count towards that 300pt mana reduction so that might be an option depending on what jewelry you might currently be using. While poisoning would give you some poison resistance if you aren't fighting something that poisons much (or since you are running 120 resist?) I'd suggest ninjitsu. 

    At 60 skill you can easily cast mirror image (20 min skill req) to divert melee attacks. You also can pretty reliably cast focus attack (30 min skill req) which would be great for doubling your leeches / spells (in addition to having the mana reduction from the 300pts). Both of these only cost 10 mana each (before LMC I believe). While mirror image will require you to be on foot, the focus attack can be used while mounted.
    If you could use a shield with focus attack I would try that out.  If I had room on my jewelry to put some fc/fcr mirror images could work, but my jewelry already has 60 points of skill on it to get the warrior skill points to 300.  Just no room. Thanks for your suggestions.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,327
    edited February 21
    @Grace

    I don't care whether they get another 10%.  None of mine run out of mana.  What is your toons stats and weapons, that are running out of mana and what are you fighting.  My lowest lvl fighters and highest do not run out of mana.

    This kinda falls under the if it aint broke don't fix it.  Especially since you know what benefit you want but you choose other skills.  UO is a game of choices in template building.  Some easier than others.

    There are other things they could do to make melee fighter templates more equal.

    Mc Dougle can throw his Gargoyes onto this list.  Look at their weapons that are not swords.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,196
    Pawain said:
    @ Grace

    I don't care whether they get another 10%.  None of mine run out of mana.  What is your toons stats and weapons, that are running out of mana and what are you fighting.  My lowest lvl fighters and highest do not run out of mana.

    This kinda falls under the if it aint broke don't fix it.  Especially since you know what benefit you want but you choose other skills.  UO is a game of choices in template building.  Some easier than others.

    There are other things they could do to make melee fighter templates more equal.
    And another helpful reply...
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,327
    McDougle said:
    Pawain said:
    @ Grace

    I don't care whether they get another 10%.  None of mine run out of mana.  What is your toons stats and weapons, that are running out of mana and what are you fighting.  My lowest lvl fighters and highest do not run out of mana.

    This kinda falls under the if it aint broke don't fix it.  Especially since you know what benefit you want but you choose other skills.  UO is a game of choices in template building.  Some easier than others.

    There are other things they could do to make melee fighter templates more equal.
    And another helpful reply...
    Yes if the OP is running out of mana there is a reason.  
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,401
    1) Healing warrior

    Weapon
    Tactics
    Anatomy
    Healing
    Parrying

    The 6th skill is the wildcard, and resist should not be default. 

    2) Strength:

    Cross healing is very powerful and stronger than Sampire.



    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,196
    Seth said:
    1) Healing warrior

    Weapon
    Tactics
    Anatomy
    Healing
    Parrying

    The 6th skill is the wildcard, and resist should not be default. 

    2) Strength:

    Cross healing is very powerful and stronger than Sampire.



    I finally dropped parry for resisting spells in hythloth even with parry you're gonna get hit and against all those casters resistance just worked better 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,401
    edited February 22
    McDougle said:
    Seth said:
    1) Healing warrior

    Weapon
    Tactics
    Anatomy
    Healing
    Parrying

    The 6th skill is the wildcard, and resist should not be default. 

    2) Strength:

    Cross healing is very powerful and stronger than Sampire.



    I finally dropped parry for resisting spells in hythloth even with parry you're gonna get hit and against all those casters resistance just worked better 
    There u go. So back to OP, how do u define a "pure warrior" in the first place. Parry is a warrior skill and resist is under magical skills as categorized in EC skills menu.

    If u want to use quests as a guide, but each quest has its unique challenges.

    Such pure, non vamp. warrior are useful against life tainted creatures. In fact so-called Sampire is invincible is rubbish. Anyone who keep saying they are overpowered are Noobs.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • Lord_FrodoLord_Frodo Posts: 1,162
    Pre AoS we had 7xGM pure warriors, it was easy.
  • Pre AoS we had 7xGM pure warriors, it was easy.
    Then they created sampires rendering them obsolete and moving the balance direction to only cater samps and tamers instead of fixing necro, chiv and bushido interactions skewing all pve and pvp that was to follow.

    Old school warriors have their uses still, but you'll generally fall short compared to anything with bushido.
  • PlayerSkillFTWPlayerSkillFTW Posts: 356
    edited February 27
    Norry said:
    Drop the shield, you have a higher chance to parry with bush with a 1 handed weapon without the shield. Or take nin and use FWW instead.

    120 Parry/0 Bushido gives 35% Parry chance with Shield, 20% with 1H/2H.
    120 Parry/120 Bushido gives 35% Parry Chance with 1H, 40% with 2H. 5% with Shield.
    Pawain said:
    Swords has all the wanted specials on the best speed/damage weapons. 1 Hand or 2 hand.
    Swords also has Onslaught, which increases damage output (particularly with Double Strike) and therefore synergizes with the Life Drain of Sampires, providing both a damage buff and self healing buff for them.

  • poppspopps Posts: 3,089
    Norry said:
    Drop the shield, you have a higher chance to parry with bush with a 1 handed weapon without the shield. Or take nin and use FWW instead.

    120 Parry/0 Bushido gives 35% Parry chance with Shield, 20% with 1H/2H.
    120 Parry/120 Bushido gives 35% Parry Chance with 1H, 40% with 2H. 5% with Shield.
    Pawain said:
    Swords has all the wanted specials on the best speed/damage weapons. 1 Hand or 2 hand.
    Swords also has Onslaught, which increases damage output (particularly with Double Strike) and therefore synergizes with the Life Drain of Sampires, providing both a damage buff and self healing buff for them.

    @PlayerSkillFTW

    May I ask a clarification ?

    You say "120 Parry/120 Bushido gives 35% Parry Chance with 1H, 40% with 2H. 5% with Shield. "

    The 5% with Shield that you mention, is it in "addition" to the 1H 35% Parry chance (thus bringing the total Parry chance to 40%, the same as that with 2H), or is it actually the "total" Parry chance from both hands if holding a Shield ?

    If so, it would be a hell of a penalization for holding a Shield with 120 Parry and 120 Bushido since it would void entirely the 35% Parry Chance from holding a 1H Weapon....
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,327

    If so, it would be a hell of a penalization for holding a Shield with 120 Parry and 120 Bushido since it would void entirely the 35% Parry Chance from holding a 1H Weapon....
    That's a choice you make. Why do you think all the Sampires use 2 handed weapons. They have Bushido. 

    You can use a 1 hand weapon. Just no shield.
  • ReikoReiko Posts: 30
    I agree with the OP on adding that change/bonus, although something to consider. Just because "sampire" and other like builds are the best and can solo almost all endgame content, doesn't mean you are forced to do so. It is still a MMO, not having a min/maxed template to not be able to solo end game doesn't doesn't mean the build is bad. Most of the content was designed in mind to be completed with groups, multiplayer. 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,327
    Reiko said:
    I agree with the OP on adding that change/bonus, although something to consider. Just because "sampire" and other like builds are the best and can solo almost all endgame content, doesn't mean you are forced to do so. It is still a MMO, not having a min/maxed template to not be able to solo end game doesn't doesn't mean the build is bad. Most of the content was designed in mind to be completed with groups, multiplayer. 
    Which warrior template is running out of Mana?

    No one seems to be able to answer that.

    My 3 main warriors that I do the Dungeons with are not Sampires.  
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,401
    edited March 1
    Reiko said:
    I agree with the OP on adding that change/bonus, although something to consider. Just because "sampire" and other like builds are the best and can solo almost all endgame content, doesn't mean you are forced to do so. It is still a MMO, not having a min/maxed template to not be able to solo end game doesn't doesn't mean the build is bad. Most of the content was designed in mind to be completed with groups, multiplayer. 
    Correction, sampires cannot solo many end game content. Those who can do that are the few. Most of them need support from bards. 

    Shadowguard, High Seas bosses, EM and new event bosses, Shame tainted mages, BMV boss, etc.

    Just because everyone can drive a car does not make everyone equally good in racing a F1 sports car.

    Just because one guy showed he can solo on youtube does not mean it's as easy for everyone with same template.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
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