LRC and PVP Idea

I have a suggestion to perhaps make reagents somewhat more useful and also provide a way for gold to be consumed in the game more. Most things have a PvE and a PvP cap, as we all should be aware of. The one thing that sticks out to me is how mages used to have to use reagents in order to cast spells and thus they thrived on corpses etc.. the good ole days. 

I think if we put a cap on LRC when using OFFENSIVE spells and DEBUFFS that the LRC should be capped at 50%...meaning you will need to carry reagents in order to do harm to other players. We wouldn't consume reagents for every spell casted. Doing this allows for 100% LRC to work on DEFENISVE spells or anything that doesn't harm another player.

If a mage dies and gets resurrected during a battle, they would have find reagents off their body or another corpse in order to jump back the battle and cast offensive spells. Similar to any dexxer that relies on bandages to fight.

Now this would probably upset a lot of people but I think it could be a fun change and a great way to consume gold in the bank.
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Comments

  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited May 2023
    "I've always maintained that LRC should've been capped at 95/99%
    the community went absolutely nuts over the proposal as if i shot their dog in front of them,
    then again, spellweaving spells don't even use reagents, neither do chivalry spells (just tithing points)"
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  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 1,790
    A. Move to Siege 
    B. Do you truly believe this team is capable? 

  • gaygay Posts: 358
    Give legacy magery spells an additional 5% bonus to spell damage when using reagents and while being a focused mage. It's one of those specs nobody uses because it means no running parry, bush, weaving, etc and is severely vulnerable to the toddler tier meta of PvP atm.

    Or even better yet, give everything that would be "focused" a 5% additional bonus to damage when using reagents and having a focus on that specific class of magic. Mage/Necro/Mystic, without any influence from Parry, Weaving, Bush, Ninja, etc.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited May 2023
    gay said:
    Give legacy magery spells an additional 5% bonus to spell damage when using reagents

    "someone told me this was the case already the other day and i couldn't find the documentation for it

    edit: just tested, could not see any additional damage"
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  • gaygay Posts: 358
    Yoshi said:
    gay said:
    Give legacy magery spells an additional 5% bonus to spell damage when using reagents

    "someone told me this was the case already the other day and i couldn't find the documentation for it

    edit: just tested, could not see any additional damage"

    It's just one of those rumours that has gone around since AoS launched.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    "perhaps it's the case on one of the free shards or something"
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  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 1,279
    As a mage would say just leave this alone.
  • RorschachRorschach Posts: 497Moderator
    Several posts have been removed. Please be mindful of the terms of service when posting, and please use appropriate language.
  • gaygay Posts: 358
    Yoshi said:
    "perhaps it's the case on one of the free shards or something"

    Idk, the first time I ever heard the regs do more dmg rumor was early AoS. Then some years later in ML when some nerds guild I wont even bother naming was trying to criticise people who used regs still.
  • bryweyh007bryweyh007 Posts: 42
    edited May 2023
    Grimbeard said:
    A. Move to Siege 
    B. Do you truly believe this team is capable? 

    I already play on Siege and I am not sure how this would be difficult to implement....

    As you should know, when you cast a mage spell, it will let you cast and then the game decides if you have enough LRC to cast the spell...instead of failing to cast the spell because insufficient LRC. SO to implement in the code, you just add a check to see if the target is a person and if the spell is offensive/debuff and the result would be to set the LRC cap to 50% and calculate whether the spell gets casted without consuming regs or not. Simple as that...

    I suppose 50% is quite extreme maybe even 90% wouldn't be so noticeable of an adjustment...

    The biggest win LRC had imo was that it allowed people to train magery without the hassle of buying regs. The biggest downside is that a goldsink was removed from the game when LRC was added. 

    If LRC is true to its name then lets talk about the reasons it doesn't work the same for inscription or alchemy :wink: guess that doesn't bother y'all.

  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited May 2023
    "you know what,
    when Lower Reagent Cost first came out, it took me a while to get 100%,
    i walked up to the mage and said 'vendor buy' and kept scratching my head as to why i couldn't see a cost reduction in the reagents.

    When i found out how it worked, i thought it was crazy that i could cast spells unlimited and just walked around e- bolting every creature"
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  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,208
    edited May 2023
    My personal opinion is balance is already firmly in Warriors hands, so any suggestion like this needs to maintain balance.

    Unlimited Swings - for No Cost at all - again, a warrior should not be able to do this. Each swing of a weapon, should be linked to Stamina - and take away say 5 stamina, when you get to zero stamina, you cannot swing your weapon anymore, and should have to pull out, to regain energy - maybe Food should be used for this, to give Food more meaning ingame also.

    The point being - even though Mages can cast spells for free, they still have a huge limiting factor - Mana. Each spell uses mana. Warriors swing weapons for free - with no limiting factor.

    Surely not a good idea to go limiting mages further, without fixing warriors first ?

    So if you want to go down this route. 
    Step 1. Link warrior swings to Stamina, this addresses the free swing issue, and links warriors abilities to mage abilities.
    Step 2. Then you can limit LRC if you wish, which will reduce spellcasting success - but again for balance - you must add in something that reduces a warriors chance to even swing his weapon. This isn't just hit/miss, DCI/HCI - this is a chance that the warrior just completely fumbles the swing and it doesn't happen.

    {Hit/Miss, HCI, DCI re Warriors, is already balanced off by the fact Mages don't miss per se (but they do v resist, cure petals, Evade etc), that mages have to actually stand still to cast each spell already, and have to press each spell individually - no automated hitting going on - which of course brings up another point - Warriors should also be required to press a button, for every single swing they do (not just specials) - this would be scripted out of course anyway.

  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,208
    By the way - I do not believe 95% LRC, means 95% chance to cast a spell - I believe it means a lot less, this is an issue.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    “A check is performed for each reagent that is consumed. Some spells only have 1 reg so 95% would mean 95%, some use 4 or 5 so that would be an issue. But at the moment as there is no cap it’s not an issue “

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  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,208
    edited May 2023
    Yoshi said:
    “A check is performed for each reagent that is consumed. Some spells only have 1 reg so 95% would mean 95%, some use 4 or 5 so that would be an issue. But at the moment as there is no cap it’s not an issue “

    Agreed, but the point is, 95% LRC does not mean 95% casting chance, it is a lot less, it affects you a lot more than most would realise.

    My point still is, there are quite a lot of Warrior balancing issues that need to be addressed, before Mages are even looked at again.



  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,208
    edited May 2023
    "If a mage dies and gets resurrected during a battle, they would have find reagents off their body or another corpse in order to jump back the battle and cast offensive spells. Similar to any dexxer that relies on bandages to fight."


    Dexxers that are all using first aid belts so they don't have to find bandages?

    Or Archers that have blessed quivers full of arrows, so they dont have to find arrows?

    Or throwers, that don't have to do anything anyway? :)


    Would mages get Blessed Pouches for Reagents, the same as all the other classes, or are we just nerfing Mages again?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,208
    edited May 2023
    gay said:
    Give legacy magery spells an additional 5% bonus to spell damage when using reagents and while being a focused mage. It's one of those specs nobody uses because it means no running parry, bush, weaving, etc and is severely vulnerable to the toddler tier meta of PvP atm.

    Or even better yet, give everything that would be "focused" a 5% additional bonus to damage when using reagents and having a focus on that specific class of magic. Mage/Necro/Mystic, without any influence from Parry, Weaving, Bush, Ninja, etc.

    Parry needs to be taken off the Focused Mages prohibited list, it is as simple as this, this should never have been implemented.

    As I have said from day 1 - all PvP classes are using Parry for a reason, and it is not because Mages are over-powered.

    The game needs to give classes a way to pvp, without Parry, when Mages nerfed themselves by all having to take up parry, they didn't do this for the fun of it.


    Edit. Orange Petals, Cure potions, Enchanted Apples, and a Trapped Box - pretty much Negate the need to have Resisting Spells on a character - and Negate a lot of what Mages can do. Whilst I would still argue resisting spells is important - there is no real Counter that replaces Parry and negates it as a skill. Wrestle/Disarm, yes, but this is very hit and miss.
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 832

    Rorschach said:
    Several posts have been removed. Please be mindful of the terms of service when posting, and please use appropriate language.
       Question for you, other mods & Devs....  Why are the forum rules more strictly enforced (and thus seemingly far more important) than the in-game rules?   I know i've asked this before in PMs with a mod at one point, but it may have been on Stratics back when devs used that site.

    I believe LRC works based on how many reagents a spell takes to cast.

    50% LRC = 50% chance to cast a spell that only takes One reagent, if it takes more than one, it's 50% chance for each of the amount of reagents the spell costs, if it fails on 1/4 reagents, the reagent check will fail.   That seems to be how it works anyway.

    That being said, I feel like LRC is fine the way it is, i also may be a bit biased on this one though, because it's never been fun to farm for reagents, especially after LRC has been part of the game for such a long time,  At this point changing it would only add more tedium.. UO has a surplus of that already, we do not need more.

    in short LRC should stay the way it is and cheats need to be cracked down on hard...


    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 832
    Cookie said:

    Parry needs to be taken off the Focused Mages prohibited list, it is as simple as this, this should never have been implemented.

    As I have said from day 1 - all PvP classes are using Parry for a reason, and it is not because Mages are over-powered.
        I still can't believe there are people who still think this.
     
     Parry has needed a very hard nerf for like 5 years or so, global loot made 80 dex essentially free of penalties for every template (allowing Mages to have parry very easily),   in addition to the tactics requirement being reduced for specials (which I advocated for, also advocating for parry to be nerfed in conjunction) because it was obvious to me that it'd be incredibly imbalanced.   Splintering weapons literally are required for melee to even have a chance against any mage with parry.. even some non-parry mages and splintering weapon are not exclusive to any template. 

    Why do you think there was an 80 dex requirement put in place before 210 stamina,  splintering weapons, reactive paralyze & shield-bash were even things?    it only really effected Mages at that time, cause mages have no need for more than 10-20 dex at the time and parry mages were as close to invincible as you could get, now you can get 80 dex from items & consumables and still have 150 str & int, it's not just broken, it's been looked at with a blind eye while pvp has slowed down to the pace its at.

     The only time in UO History parry had an actual purpose against non-casters, was when a lumberjack-swordsman could 2 shot you if you were unable to heal between hits. and parry didn't block 100% of the damage like it does now, it just reduced incoming damage to where it'd take 4 hits to a person with 100-110 Hp, it worked similarly to how Swamp-dragon armor works now (or when it worked in pvp anyway)

      If parry were brought down to a reasonable block chance, I could see restoring focus spec to parry-mages, even though 5% SDI is like 1-3 damage, where as 15% that it used to be was 3-9 damage, depending on the spells base damage and targets debuff status ofc.

    I agree with
    Cookie said:

    Edit. Orange Petals, Cure potions, Enchanted Apples, and a Trapped Box - pretty much Negate the need to have Resisting Spells on a character - and Negate a lot of what Mages can do. Whilst I would still argue resisting spells is important - there is no real Counter that replaces Parry and negates it as a skill. Wrestle/Disarm, yes, but this is very hit and miss.
       Trap boxes should deal an absolute minimum of 20 damage per proc (the more damage, the better tbh).  there has to be some trade-off for negating paralyze effects with essentially an unlimited use consumable.   -I've said it before, but parry is worse, because it effects more than 3 things spells/specials... anyway.

    increasing the damage of trapped boxes would serve two purposes.  
    1) increase the effectiveness of paralyzing specials, spells & effects. (the main purpose)
    2) penalize the people who script their box by killing them at a reasonable rate.


     Cure potions (Greater Cure Potions) when combined with 50% Enhanced potions should have a 100% chance to cure all levels of poison, upon successful Cure, should trigger a 5 second cooldown on cure potion re-use.   -Then again, if cheats (scripts) weren't so f**king prominent in UO, and a players timing was actually required,  some of these solutions wouldn't even need suggesting.
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,208
    edited May 2023
    @CovenantX - It is not Parry that needs nerfing - it is the templates that cause everyone to feel they need to use Parry - because trust me, if we didn't need it, we would not be using it. Instead everyone bit the bullet, and took on board a huge Nerf to their templates by keeping Parry which was killing their templates.

    Parry was not nerfed, instead they nerfed the Mages by destroying the Focussed Template.

    How come more templates than ever are finding Parry a necessity?

    You are looking at the after-effects, the symptoms, I am looking at the Cause.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,208
    edited May 2023
    You talk of allowing Mages to have Parry very easily - this is False. Having Parry really messes up our ability to cast anything - we have about 150 Mana, when we need 200+ to be able to maintain any sort of decent fight time. We LOSE 80 MANA which effectively kills our pvp ability right there. Mages are a class, that clearly need mana to function.


    Warriors - get to use ALL of their Stats and properties generated via the very generous pvm loot bonuses. They have a use for HP, Str, Dex, Stam, Int and the related Mana. Mages do not - Dex and Stam are useless to them, so the increase here is useless - then Forcing 80 Dex into Parry, completely nerfs their casting effectiveness. This is actually the Crux of the Issue. Warriors get to use it all, highly effectively. Meaning Mages NEED Parry to survive the Onslaught. Meaning Warriors get pissed off, but Mages have nerfed themselves into the ground here to survive the Warriors loot bonuses, it's a vicious circle.

    Warriors need a fix.

    1. It can be linking each Swing to a reduction in Stamina. The same way Mages have to play. Then warriors would have to worry about Stamina conservation, and pull out sometimes, and end up running away because they cannot do anything.

    and 2. It could be, making some of Warriors Increased Stat availability, useless somehow - the same way as 80 Dex for Mages is tied up and useless. 84 Dexterity in fact - because you want enough to cover Curse.
    Actually the Solution could be - to make it equivalent - if a warrior wants to use a Special - he has to have a minimum Int pool of 84. That would have an equal impact on other Warrior stats, that is happening to Mages. This does not completely work - because warriors can use that mana pool, in a way Mages cannot use the 84 Stamina pool they have sucked out of their template. 74 in fact - if you take into account a normal Dex minimum of 10 for a mage, lets round it to 75 wasted stats for a mage. If the Mage could use that Stamina, for some other purpose - it would not be so bad, like warriors can use Mana for Specials.

    So based off that - I will give you an alternative to 2.
    2.a. Mages should have some very tasty Stamina Based Specials - in the same way Warriors have very tasty Mana based specials - so we can tap into that pool of Stats - and use the full range like Warriors can.


    The reality is - Mages have to play through both of these Disadvantages, in a way Warrriors do not.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    Cookie said:

    How come more templates than ever are finding Parry a necessity?
    “Power creep,
    before, you had to choose between having swing speed, damage increase, or hit lower defence. Now all templates you got all 3 so need parry now”


    Posts on this account have been pre filtered from personal comment or opinion in an effort to suppress conservative views in order to protect the reader.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,208
    edited May 2023
    Yoshi said:
    Cookie said:

    How come more templates than ever are finding Parry a necessity?
    “Power creep,
    before, you had to choose between having swing speed, damage increase, or hit lower defence. Now all templates you got all 3 so need parry now”


    I completely agree power creep is the cause - in fact both Covenant and I are saying this.

    We are reading the effect of it differently though.

    I am saying this power creep has benefitted warriors to a point, it's forced a majority of other templates and even warriors to need parry. (which ties up with what you just said also).

    He is saying, Parry is the problem, nerf it.

    I am saying - we need to make it so players do not feel the need for Parry. I much prefer playing my non parry mage, to my parry mage, but he gets ripped apart, if I could use him, I would.

    What they tried to do with the Focus Mage Parry implementation - was make Parry so Unattractive to Pure Mages, they would stop using Parry. They tried to FORCE Mages out of Parry (We lose 5% PvP SDI which is a lot if we keep Parry). What in fact happened, is all Mages realised they still NEED Parry, so it basically nerfed and killed off the entire Focussed Mage Template, because the change made them unviable. We'd all still prefer to be playing Pure mages.

    They do not need to Force (and fail anyway, because they addressed the wrong issue), they need to give an attractive alternative. Carrot and Stick, they used the Stick, and failed.
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 832
    Cookie said:
    I completely agree power creep is the cause - in fact both Covenant and I are saying this.

    We are reading the effect of it differently though.

    I am saying this power creep has benefitted warriors to a point, it's forced a majority of other templates and even warriors to need parry. (which ties up with what you just said also).

    He is saying, Parry is the problem, nerf it.

    I am saying - we need to make it so players do not feel the need for Parry. I much prefer playing my non parry mage, to my parry mage, but he gets ripped apart, if I could use him, I would.

        Yes, powercreep is the reason parry is possible on mages, because reaching 80 dex without sacrificing basically anything wasn't possible before.  Now it is, and there aren't really any better options for mages anyway.  the offense you gain from less weapon-based interruptions on all parry-mages is a massive bonus.   in addition to either Shield-bash.. or Evasion + weapon specials are just too much for one template... -I'd also like it if refinements had zero effect against players to, they just make parry even better. -which i also pointed out a few times before.


    My favorite is when people use the "Paper, Rock, Scissors" analogy, that really only applied when parry-mages weren't a thing.

    Melee Dexer (all variants) = Rock. (disarm for archers)

    Mages (all variants before parry was 'free') = Paper (archers were really the only 'weakness' because you can't always just move one step to reset their attack speed and easily manipulate when their next attack will be preformed, which is why they were more difficult than melee)

    Archer/Thrower (all variants) = Scissors (ranged weapons for mages)

    Parry-Mage (all variants) = Rock, Paper & Scissors.  - only weakness is other mages, it's safe to assume those other mages would also have parry though, for evasion... of course.


    you seem to equate  Parry (30-35% Block chance, on templates that didn't have it before, nor did they need it) with 0.25s off of the next tier slower weapon (let's face it, the SSI from the additional +30 stamina) only benefited archers & throwers) That's  Far from equal.. like not even close, and that's not counting the additional AI & Moving shot nerfs archers had in the same publish focus spec was changed.






    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • bryweyh007bryweyh007 Posts: 42
    edited May 2023
    I think the part some people over look when it comes to mages vs. dexxers and its pretty obvious. There is 0% chance to fail casting a spell with 120 magery unless you were hit and focused disrupted.....mages sync cast on a target using pre-casted spells and scripts and the dexxer has no real way to combat it effectively. There used to be Evasion which worked better til the nerf but even that was too powerful. I think a look into limiting how far a person can travel with a spell pre-casted needs to be addressed a bit and of course how long the spell can be pre-casted.

    Melee dexxers have to make contact with the target  to do any damage.....ranged attacks don't have to make contact with their target but they have to be idle long enough to shoot/throw and manually trigger their ability like a mage has to cast a spell. IN ADDITION, there is the chance for the attack to miss or not even swing when contact is made with the target. (I think it would be cooler to hit a button to swing instead of the game auto swinging when it wants lol always awfully timed swings). You all act like dexxers have the ability to not get hung up on foilage while pvping and can predict when their targets next steps are going to be.

    Cookie said:
    "If a mage dies and gets resurrected during a battle, they would have find reagents off their body or another corpse in order to jump back the battle and cast offensive spells. Similar to any dexxer that relies on bandages to fight."


    Dexxers that are all using first aid belts so they don't have to find bandages?

    Or Archers that have blessed quivers full of arrows, so they dont have to find arrows?

    Or throwers, that don't have to do anything anyway? :)


    Would mages get Blessed Pouches for Reagents, the same as all the other classes, or are we just nerfing Mages again?

    1. Locating the pesky, ugly pixels in backpack as nobody wears them because they have 0 pvp stats. Takes longer than hitting a keybind to equip my armor.
    2. Move bandages to backpack

    Mages hit a macro to equip their lrc suit and then 10 seconds later they're fully healed....and even with my proposed idea...healing isn't an offensive spell so no reagents needed to heal up....same with recall, invisibility etc. The idea isn't meant to be a devastating nerf for mages....the goal is to require about 100 of each reagent to last 20mins of non-stop casting offensive spells. SO you want to last a whole harrower fight or a populated raid....carry 500 each reagent if you want or loot off of mages you kill instead of running to the next target right away.

    I love the "are we just nerfing Mages again"
    Did forgot how evasion was nerfed and then nerfed some more. Mages are not the only class that has been nerfed. Ranged melee has had its substantial nerfs on top of having practically 0 chance to parry attacks.

    Mages have received so many tools that apparently get overlooked. The biggest being LRC of course. Then there's a Mage Weapons that doesn't have any penalty unless you suck and didn't get Spell Channeling on it lol . As stated above, the ability to pre-cast a spell, move around several screens and finish casting the spell. Mages can synchronize attacks to give the target 0% chance to survive. Spell combos to stack damage (explosion then fs). The ability to invis instead of having to have a skill to hide like everyone else. Teleport to rooftops, cast protection to not be disrupted when taking damage, paralyze spam people, energy field with wall of stone to box players in, mana drain target so they can't use their mana to do damage, poison target where no skill is needed to slow a dexxers healing.....debuffs to weaken target. The list of perks are quite long if we keep going at it lol but you get the point....DEXXERS have to use skills points to do additional strategies to kill someone where mages don't need to have additional skill points. All that is needed is the key bind set for the spell and mana to cast the spell. Mages need to focus on two stats and don't need dex meanwhile dexxers need all 3 to be effective and mana isn't as easily recovered. A Dexxer's  mana is penalized when they repeat the primary/secondary ability consecutively. This is quite common to affect a dexxer because most weapons only have one special ability that is used repeatedly. I don't recall a mage being penalized any additional mana for repeatedly spamming paralyze or whatever spell their spamming...and even if there was a penalty...there 64 spells in magery so that's practically easy to avoid a penalty similar to dexxers.

  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,208
    edited May 2023
    CovenantX said:

        Yes, powercreep is the reason parry is possible on mages, because reaching 80 dex without sacrificing basically anything wasn't possible before.  Now it is, and there aren't really any better options for mages anyway.  the offense you gain from less weapon-based interruptions on all parry-mages is a massive bonus.   in addition to either Shield-bash.. or Evasion + weapon specials are just too much for one template... -I'd also like it if refinements had zero effect against players to, they just make parry even better. -which i also pointed out a few times before.



    Who said we want Parry on Mages?

    1. Mages have LOST 5% SDI. 5% out of 25% possible PvP SDI. 20% of our Damage Increase - Possibly Warriors should also lose 60 DI out of their 300 DI Cap if they run Parry? It's tough to hit accurately for huge damage, when carrying a heavy shield? Gargoyles LOSE 10% HCI if they use a shield? There is your direct comparison to how Warriors are silently benefitting all over the shop.

    2. It has sucked up 75 Mana, we desperately need for Casting. Can barely achieve 150 Mana if using Parry, when much like your 210 Stamina warriors, we need 210 Mana to be able to compete in PvP for a decent fight without having to run away pretty fast. Warriors should equally lose 35% of their Mana pool Mana if they run Parry - carrying those Shields is tough work, and affects you mentally surely?

    Parry is a nerf for mages in itself, we don't want it, I'd rather have alchemy, scribe, necro, something else - yet we STILL have Parry!

    You keep saying without sacrificing anything,
    Mages have sacrificed;
    1. 20% of our SDI Increase.
    2. 75 Mana out of the 210 we need (like Dexxers need Stam) = 35% of our Mana pool sacrificed.
    3. The opportunity to have a more Mage-Based skill on our MAGES!

    3 huge sacrifices not enough?








  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,208
    edited May 2023
    I'm having to do your quotes differently, as I cannot make them work.

    "I think the part some people over look when it comes to mages vs. dexxers and its pretty obvious. There is 0% chance to fail casting a spell with 120 magery unless you were hit and focused disrupted.....mages sync cast on a target using pre-casted spells and scripts and the dexxer has no real way to combat it effectively. There used to be Evasion which worked better til the nerf but even that was too powerful. I think a look into limiting how far a person can travel with a spell pre-casted needs to be addressed a bit and of course how long the spell can be pre-casted."


    Not forgetting the obvious of course, Mages have to stand still like sitting ducks to cast anything - which is basically giving away free hits, which then equals, bleed, so no more casting, splinter, so forced walk, more hits incoming, once a mage it hit, that' pretty much it.

    Dexxers also sync.



    "1. Locating the pesky, ugly pixels in backpack as nobody wears them because they have 0 pvp stats. Takes longer than hitting a keybind to equip my armor."

    Yet I still do it on my dexxers. The point is, you don't lose your bandages, yet you want Mages to lose their reagents, which would make them pretty much the only class to lose something vital for them to do anything.


    All I'm seeing in your post - is a 4th, and 5th way to Nerf Mages, on top of everything else that has already landed.

    4. With say a 95% LRC suit, you are giving us say 80% casting success.
    5. You want us to lose reagents when we die, when no other class loses anything.


    How about we address the real issues without keep Nerfing Mages?

    1. Warriors Autohit - this should be keyed - the same as Mages have to.
    2. Warriors have NO cost when hitting - should be a Stamina Cost - the same as Mages face with Mana.
    3. Warriors have not had their Damage increase nerfed by at least 20%.
    4. Warriors through power creep, can use ALL the added available stats given to them, meaning they have access to everything - max hit speed (Dex), max damage (Str) and More Specials (Mana) - whilst Mages have been forced into using Parry to survive all of this - meaning we have been completely Nerfed, as any related nerf to parry has a direct knock-on effect to mages. Mages have no Beneficial use for the 84 Dexterity we are forced to have for Parry, which we are Forced to have because Warriors are completely broken through power-creep.
    5. Warriors have not had their Mana-pool Nerfed. If they run Parry - they should lose 35% of their Mana that they use for so many increased Specials.

    But finally - for the REAL fix.
    How about give an Attractive proposition for Mages to not REQUIRE Parry, then we can drop it, and get everything that has been taken away from us back.
    1. 20% SDI reduction.
    2. 35% Manapool reduction.
    3. Lost opportunity to have a more fun mage related skill.




  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,208
    edited May 2023





    Mages have received so many tools that apparently get overlooked. The biggest being LRC of course. Then there's a Mage Weapons that doesn't have any penalty unless you suck and didn't get Spell Channeling on it lol . As stated above, the ability to pre-cast a spell, move around several screens and finish casting the spell. Mages can synchronize attacks to give the target 0% chance to survive. Spell combos to stack damage (explosion then fs). The ability to invis instead of having to have a skill to hide like everyone else. Teleport to rooftops, cast protection to not be disrupted when taking damage, paralyze spam people, energy field with wall of stone to box players in, mana drain target so they can't use their mana to do damage, poison target where no skill is needed to slow a dexxers healing.....debuffs to weaken target. The list of perks are quite long if we keep going at it lol but you get the point....DEXXERS have to use skills points to do additional strategies to kill someone where mages don't need to have additional skill points. All that is needed is the key bind set for the spell and mana to cast the spell. Mages need to focus on two stats and don't need dex meanwhile dexxers need all 3 to be effective and mana isn't as easily recovered. A Dexxer's  mana is penalized when they repeat the primary/secondary ability consecutively. This is quite common to affect a dexxer because most weapons only have one special ability that is used repeatedly. I don't recall a mage being penalized any additional mana for repeatedly spamming paralyze or whatever spell their spamming...and even if there was a penalty...there 64 spells in magery so that's practically easy to avoid a penalty similar to dexxers.

    I don't get the point, there is a counter to everything you have listed.

    Mages have received so many tools that apparently get overlooked.The biggest being LRC of course. - Why do Mages have to be the only class to REQUIRE consumables to even operate? 

    Then there's a Mage Weapons that doesn't have any penalty unless you suck and didn't get Spell Channeling on it lol - Why would a pure mage want to use a weapon, may as well make a dexxer? Spare hand required for potions.

    As stated above, the ability to pre-cast a spell, move around several screens and finish casting the spell. - And? Warriors can load up a Special and move around several screens until they hit and land it.

    Mages can synchronize attacks to give the target 0% chance to survive. - Warriors can do the same.

    Spell combos to stack damage (explosion then fs). Target 150 HP, Max resists, you've just done 10 + 20 damage, and you notice you have not even dented the warrior with our lack of SDI.

    The ability to invis instead of having to have a skill to hide like everyone else. - Invis Potions - don;t even need a spell.

    Teleport to rooftops - Warriors carry Teleport scrolls, or build in minimum magery.

    cast protection to not be disrupted when taking damage - Why would you do this, when it slows down your casting to make you a sitting duck, reduces physical resist, and reduces your resisting spells, far more Disadvantages than advantages.

    paralyze spam people - Resisting spells pretty much negates this, trapped box instantly negates, or anti paralysis VvV potion.

    energy field with wall of stone to box players in - Energy field has massive mana usage. Wall of Stone useful yes. Can still be dispelled.

    mana drain target so they can't use their mana to do damage - Mana Drain barely works - Resisting Spells counters and it is only temproary.

    poison target where no skill is needed to slow a dexxers healing.... - Cure potion, Orange Petals, Resisting spells negates most Poison attempts - Cure as a spell, has almost been completely negated for Mages, yet should be one of our most powerful, to be taken out by Poison on a Dexxer means you have to be doing something seriously wrong, when you have so many counters.

    debuffs to weaken target - Enchanted Apples + Remove Curse Chivalry.

    The list of perks are quite long if we keep going at it lol but you get the point - Nope, I did not get the point. I just notice a Dexxer has a counter to everything. Not forgetting of Course, the blindingly obvious, a Mage has to stand still to cast, in which case, if the Dexxer see's anything bad coming, he should be off-screen anyway. It's only 10-12 steps distance you need to manage a Mage.


    Now I have given you the Dexxer counter to absolutely everything a Mage can do - in your opinion, maybe you will now be open to my suggestions for creating balance between warriors and mages.

    1. We need to get rid of warriors autohit. You should have to press a key, every single time you want to swing your weapon, the same way mages have to press a key for every single spell/ability we wish to perform. This is only fair, surely?

    2. Your weapon swings have NO cost attached at all. Mages spells cost mana, it makes sense a spell costs a certain amount of mental energy. It surely also makes sense a warriors swing of his heavy double handed axe, costs a certain amount of physical energy, and should reduce Stamina per swing? You should have to carry consumables - ie Food, like Mages should have to carry reagents, and you should have to eat that food to bring your Energy back up. If you would agree to this, I would agree to the balance between Mages and Warriors, and Mages then having to carry reagents.

    3. If a warrior is using Parry skill, he should suffer a 20% DI reduction, and a 35% Mana penalty, the same as Mages do, when they use Parry skill.

    4. Mages should be able to use Dex for something positive. Currently they have zero use for it. This limits their abilities compared to what a Warrior is dishing out. OR, and this is my preference, we should be given an alternative to Parry, so we can drop it, and pick up a more Mage related skill.


    You see the thing is, and this is where I actually line up with Covenant - I do not want to have to use Parry, I'd like us to be able to drop it, but we cannot. I think Covenant fails to see this, I want to get rid of Parry, as much as he does. I'd much prefer Scribe, or Alchemy, or many other things, Poison etc - or even Meditation which most of us have had to drop, to get Parry in the first place.
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 832
    Cookie said:

    Who said we want Parry on Mages?

    1. Mages have LOST 5% SDI. 5% out of 25% possible PvP SDI. 20% of our Damage Increase - Possibly Warriors should also lose 60 DI out of their 300 DI Cap if they run Parry? It's tough to hit accurately for huge damage, when carrying a heavy shield? Gargoyles LOSE 10% HCI if they use a shield? There is your direct comparison to how Warriors are silently benefitting all over the shop.

    2. It has sucked up 75 Mana, we desperately need for Casting. Can barely achieve 150 Mana if using Parry, when much like your 210 Stamina warriors, we need 210 Mana to be able to compete in PvP for a decent fight without having to run away pretty fast. Warriors should equally lose 35% of their Mana pool Mana if they run Parry - carrying those Shields is tough work, and affects you mentally surely?

    Parry is a nerf for mages in itself, we don't want it, I'd rather have alchemy, scribe, necro, something else - yet we STILL have Parry!

    You keep saying without sacrificing anything,
    Mages have sacrificed;
    1. 20% of our SDI Increase.
    2. 75 Mana out of the 210 we need (like Dexxers need Stam) = 35% of our Mana pool sacrificed.
    3. The opportunity to have a more Mage-Based skill on our MAGES!

    3 huge sacrifices not enough?
        non-arguments man  I expected more, but this is what you have?  C'mon..
     
        Actually Genius, Parry-mages lost 10% SDI when focus spec was changed, and  Non-focus spec Mages gained 5% because they were capped at 15% -adding on to both caps if adding scribe - but that part is the same.  -Anyway.

      #1) the offense of a parry-mage is not the issue..  it's the defense they have because even at 0 SDI they'd still have better offense than most dexers do.  

     #2) what kind of mage needs 210 Mana for pvp?  no mage should need more than 150 (what cap Int- gives you)..  and that's probably twice as much as you would need to kill someone if you land a combo right the first time.   besides, you can pretty easily find armor with Dex, Mana LRC LMC MR SR and high resist.   you must be using an imbued suit in the era of legendaries, but even reforging +5 dex and imbuing around it, you'd still have more benefit from that than what a dexer in a full suit of max 3 stat -no-name legendaries would get from that. -in pvp at least.
    ...  

     #3)  Magery + Eval has more versatility in 2 skills (Especially if you utilize a Mage Weapon) than any other template in UO can have with 4 (only excluding Magery & Eval on the "Other Templates")   -You're pretty much as wrong as you could possibly be on that.  I'm pretty sure I said something to this effect to you before... but whatever.

    a dexer's mana pool is irrelevant when they can't hit you enough to spend it in the first place.
    but keep throwing it all at the wall, everyone that pvped in the last 4-5 years knows how garbage parry is.. mostly on mages, cause a parry dexer isn't a threat the anyone short of the glenda-bash (which is also stronger when used by a Mage..shocker I know). 

    -What else you got?
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 832
    edited May 2023
    Cookie said:

    But finally - for the REAL fix.
    How about give an Attractive proposition for Mages to not REQUIRE Parry, then we can drop it, and get everything that has been taken away from us back.
    1. 20% SDI reduction.
    2. 35% Manapool reduction.
    3. Lost opportunity to have a more fun mage related skill.

       If the devs don't play enough UO and managed to do what is in this quote without completely breaking parry to uselessness there would still be no reason to drop parry.   you're asking for more offense as a reason to get rid of the defense you would never give up anyway.   Mr Magoo could detect that BS.  C'mon..   .

      There are already Parry-Necro-mages.  Parry-mystic-mages.  Parry-spellweaving-mages. they'd be stronger, dexers will still be as useless against them as they are now, but they'd have an even more difficult time to survive it. .
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
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