item use not clearing cursor in EC enabling invincibility

YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
edited April 2023 in Bugs
" @Misk urgent

  1. drag a potion or trapped box to a hotbar slot
  2. right click the hotbar slot, and select target->self (instead of cursor).
  3. assign a macro key to the hotbar slot
  4. cast spell EG greater heal (cursor version, e.g. from spellbook)
  5. wait for cursor to popup
  6. hit macro assigned at step 3.
  7. target yourself with greater heal cursor.

enabling invincibility vs other players


expected result: for use of item, EG cure potion or trapped box to cancel target or you cannot kill anoyone if they just keep casting heal spell and can drink cure without losing held spell target

thanks to @ForeverFun for repro"





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Comments

  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited April 2023
    "Can use +35 skill resisting spells and go in protection and just cast heal and poison won’t do anything…

    total joke game
    @Kyronix sort this out please”
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  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited April 2023
    "because already being invincible by being able to drink cure and heal potion while holding a heal spell isn't enough.

    Can also eat enchanted apple without losing held spell.

    And for killing people, can even use supernova and not lose held spell.


    Maybe its 'feature...'


    Can also hold any spell and throw a conflag on the floor without losing held spell (can set target as either self or current)

    And with explosion potions (plural), and set to target current, can hold a spell and throw explosion potions, without losing held spell.
    Can also throw shuriken continuously and fukiya darts, when set to target current, and hold spell without losing held spell

    Giving 1000 x increased power to EC users and other non CC users"


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  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited April 2023
    “I would just like to clarify.

    When I report bugs, it’s just to improve the game. 
    Some trollers thinking just because I can kill them in game or something that I am reporting bug for complaint that someone else has something I don’t have??
    I have EC installed, AND Pinco’s UI
    I have access to third party client & access to the top top technical support for it, literally the people who write the scripts will give me direct support if I ask for it.
    I have access to ALL the cheat scripts.
    if I want to install script to auto trapped box on nerve strike so missing debuff bug is moot I have access to that script. I have access to attunement bug script to show cooldown.

    If I want to use cheats I can.
    if I want to use EC I can (and do for some things)
    I am choosing to play the game as it is intended and to report this bug in the same context. 

    I am certain this is not working as intended.

    So much so that, people who were using this trick were going to the effort of removing YouTube videos that depict this happening and denying this was even possible and that the scripts even existed to perform these acts.

    if devs want to do nothing about it and just allow people to call it a feature, that is very sad and very bad for the game.


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  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 1,897
    Yoshi said:
    “I would just like to clarify.

    When I report bugs, it’s just to improve the game. 
    Some trollers thinking just because I can kill them in game or something that I am reporting bug for complaint that someone else has something I don’t have??
    I have EC installed, AND Pinco’s UI
    I have access to third party client & access to the top top technical support for it, literally the people who write the scripts will give me direct support if I ask for it.
    I have access to ALL the cheat scripts.
    if I want to install script to auto trapped box on nerve strike so missing debuff bug is moot I have access to that script. I have access to attunement bug script to show cooldown.

    If I want to use cheats I can.
    if I want to use EC I can (and do for some things)
    I am choosing to play the game as it is intended and to report this bug in the same context. 

    I am certain this is not working as intended.

    So much so that, people who were using this trick were going to the effort of removing YouTube videos that depict this happening and denying this was even possible and that the scripts even existed to perform these acts.

    if devs want to do nothing about it and just allow people to call it a feature, that is very sad and very bad for the game.


    Maybe you should just take up fishing 
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 1,020
    What Yoshi is talking about here is not a bug, but a difference between software that was written in 1995-ish (CC) to 2009-ish (EC). A significant period of time in software development.

    The Enhanced Client has the ability to "multi-thread" instructions. (I'm not sure how Bleak would actually describe it, but that is the way I think of it.)

    In general, in the EC, the mouse "thread" is separate from the "keyboard" thread, which is separate from the macro "thread", etc. As long as the thread instructions are "in" before the server "tic", the EC/server can process many instructions per "tic". The CC/server can only process one.

    However, this basic function of CC/server communication is also what makes UO...UO. Without it, the game would behave in an entirely different manner. I.E. swing speed is based off animation frames per second, as determined by CC/server communication, with one "frame", or "tic", every 0.25 seconds. No matter which version of the CC you're running, it's still bound to that same timing with the server.


    Think of the CC as an old 1 piston steam cylinder. It sets the timing for the game. The game processes when the piston hits the top of the stroke. You get feedback to the instrument panel only when the game processes.

    Think of the EC as a modern variable valve timing V-8. The modern engine can rev, reduce rev, vary fuel to each cylinder, etc. all within the time frame of the single 1 piston stroke. However, you still only get feedback to the instrument panel when the game processes, which is based off the timing of the CC.

    This timing system keeps the EC from quite literally running circles around the CC.

    However, the core programming of the EC is much more advanced than the CC and therefore the EC can do things the CC cannot.
    -Arroth
  • PawainPawain Posts: 8,972
    @Arroth_Thaiel It sounds like you are trying to say that EC can use parallel data transfer while CC uses serial data transfer.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited April 2023
    " Attoth, regardless of the technical reasons behind it, i'm sure there are many. And i'm sure you're correct about multithreading.

    The end result is that, you can hold a heal spell, use a cure potion or enchanted apple or tapped box and retain holding the heal spell.

    The way the game is supposed to work is that you're not supposed to be invincible. Regardless of the technical reasons about multithreading behind it.

    None of these major mechanic changes are documented anywhere,
    The basic premise of the game is one person casts poison, or mortal or something, and the other person has to choose a counter action.
    And not get to do both

    For example, in both clients, if you cast heal, you can't then cast evasion and still keep the heal spell held"
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  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited April 2023
    (i'm not really wanting to talk about third party client.
    But if this major change in mechanic is deemed a "feature" then obviously everyone will want to be able to play in invincible mode, whether they're using EC or CC.
    And also be able to throw shurikens and explosion potions and conflag and nova while they're holding explode spell etc....
    And to perform this in CC:
    1 you'd need to install third party client
    2 currently you need to install individual scripts for each object, it's not major job, i have the scripts.
    In the long run i could contact the developers of the third party client and have these scripts installed by default
    But it's pushing people down another path. )
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  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 782
    edited April 2023
    If it's 1 vs. many PVP, this won't make the "1" invulnerable. If it's 1:1 PVP, there's a claim that nobody is using CC anyway, and both parties are theoretically on equal footing.

    If Yoshi offered a bounty of 1P for a way to do this in CC, perhaps CC would be in scope too.

    Using items has a cooldown (approx 1 second).

    One player with 5 pets can already trigger 5 pets to attack with a single action, which can in turn lead to many actions from the 5 pets being triggered immediately.  That's in parallel to what the tamer commanding the pets is doing too.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited April 2023
    "rather than the solution to be, for everyone to use third party and install scripts or play EC.

    This is just not a good game mechanic, should just be removed, as it's not intended play i'm sure.
    currently very few people had the ability to do this and kept it a secret"
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  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 1,020
    edited April 2023
    Pawain said:
    @ Arroth_Thaiel It sounds like you are trying to say that EC can use parallel data transfer while CC uses serial data transfer.
    I'm unsure of the exact description, or method of client/server communication, or how a professional programmer might explain it. Bleak or Kyronix may disagree strongly with my above explanation, but the gist of it is accurate and you can use the EC to prove that to yourself.

    I use what I wrote above as my personal way of understanding how the clients differ in interaction with the server and therefore why the EC can behave as it does.

    Yoshi said:
    ...
    The end result is that, you can hold a heal spell, use a cure potion or enchanted apple or tapped box and retain holding the heal spell.

    ...

    For example, in both clients, if you cast heal, you can't then cast evasion and still keep the heal spell held"

    This is a perfect example. I'm going to keep using "thread" because that's the way I think of it, but "thread" is probably not technically the correct way to explain it.

    The EC cannot cast heal and evasion at the same, because they are both in the spell "thread". However, the EC can cast Heal, and perform a mouse command (as long as it isn't in the spell "thread"), and perform a keyboard command (as long as it isn't in the spell "thread" or the mouse "thread"), and perform a number of macros (as long as they aren't in the spell "thread", the mouse "thread", the keyboard "thread", and they don't overlap into each other's macro "threads"), all within the 0.25 s server tic. So yes, the EC can cast heal, and perform an enchanted apple macro, and a bunch of other things, simultaneously.


    The basic premise of the game may have once been single action>single counter action, but software has evolved considerably since then. The basic structure of the software is what you're running into. How to account for those changes is going to be up to the game's developers.

    I'm not disagreeing with anything your saying Yoshi. My point is that this isn't a bug, but a much deeper issue related to the age of the CC, how software was written at the time the CC was, and how core changes to software programming over a 15 year or so time span, is what you've run across in this topic.


    --
    Keep in mind that even with "multi-threading", the EC is "gated" by the CC, and by your own computers ability to process information. As such, only so many instructions can be executed in a server "tic" of 0.25 s (25ms). If each instruction takes an average 3 ms for your computer to process, you have about 8 instructions you can process in the available 25ms server "tic". In live gameplay, it's probably closer to 3-5 instructions per tic (latency, etc.). 
    -Arroth
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited April 2023
    "I understand your explanation,
    but at the end of the day the fundemental game mechanics have changed.
    I don't know why you're saying it's okay to be invincible in EC.

    If you log into any other game in god mode, they ban you.

    I don't know how else to explain, the game has always been, you cure, or you heal (or cleansing winds to do both - but it's much slower spell cast), you apple or you do something else, it's what a game is. what's point in playing chess if you can now start with all your pawns as queens?"
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  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited April 2023

    If Yoshi offered a bounty of 1P for a way to do this in CC, perhaps CC would be in scope too.
    “I actually already got a script to do this in third party classic client, someone sent it to me because they wanted me to give to devs to be fixed because it’s very bad for game, and it’s funny I read the script and I kinda thought hmm maybe it’s possible to do in EC and I just assumed it’s not possible to right click an object to choose target because… like evade you can’t actually choose target when target should not be an option. I mean, why would you be able to set cure potion as target??
    I just never got around to opening it and checking because I thought there is no way something so absurd would be possible…
    And as soon as I saw your description, because I had seen the script to do it in third party client I knew instantly it was unbelievably true.”
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  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 782
    Yoshi, as I alluded to in the post in the PVP section, there are other cases where the EC handles targeting/cursors in an optimal way.

    For instance, if you double click an axe, you can then cast a direct spell (against current, stored, etc, or a spell like earthquake), and still have the axe cursor up after that spell casts.

    You seem to be asking for a fundamental change in the way use/cursor target cursor handling is done - server side.  I'm guessing if the UO dev went down this path, there would be regressions and other consequences.

    The EC simply has more advanced targeting options/handling capabilities than CC.

    As I mention up above, there are many other much more "powerful" / devastating ways to benefit from concurrency - like ordering 5 pets in one command.  You have not quantified how "invulnerable" a player is by holding a spell, nor how the use operation (drinking a pot, using a trapped chest, etc) cooldown timer plays a role.

  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 1,897
    I think we all know yoshi is not referring to the ec but to third party clients 
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited April 2023
      You have not quantified how "invulnerable" a player is by holding a spell

    "the best way to describe, is by using the protection spell and casting heal, normally if you're poisoned you then can't use that heal ofcourse, you have to cure and recast heal.
    Same with mortal shot, if you're mortalled you have to apple then recast the heal spell (or wait out the mortal)
    or if you're paralised or nerve striked, you would choose to either use trapped box and recast heal spell, or wait out the para/stun.
    using this, you can just do both so be invincible.

    But even without protection spell, you will still be invincible for same reasons. Can just hold heal spell and drink all potions/apples. .

    But moreover, you can hold say explode, and use shuriken continously until you Deadly poison the target and then drop the held explode only after successful DP. So this 100% negates any DCI or parrying a victim would have if you can continously throw shuriken until it succesfully hits without even having to recast your aggressive spell. Same with throwing explosion potions, Alchemist could hold flamestike spell, start explosion pot timer, 3...2...1 and drop both instantly on target.

    It's multi factor power increase and just doesn't work as a game.

    In group fights, normally people throw paralise fields to defend an area, if all mages can just cast flamestrike and run through para fields and set off trapped box without losing the flamestike, it negates para fields...

    that is just a few examples, but we're talking
    Shuriken/fukiya dart, trapped box, super nova, explode potion, heal potion, cure potion, enchanted apple, oh wow even refresh potion so you can hold spell and not be stamina blocked even, it's everything, it's all very imbalancing and don't work as a game.

    It's GOD mode,
    is way more powerful than having 3000 skill points"
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  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited April 2023
    "i just tested spell trigger going into stone form and thankfully this is not affected, can't hold a spell and use that object, (but heal stone is affected)


    I found also, you can precast teleport spell (or any), and throw bola at target and you don't lose the teleport spell target cursor, enabling you to increase your bola range by 11 tiles, (as you don't have to stop and cast the teleport spell)"
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  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited April 2023
    "as stated in original post.

    expected result: use object to cancel active target cursor,

     that would fix every single issue, and any issue i have not thought of, and any new issue that may arise in future

    Shouldn't affect any current users, only a few people were abusing this before. And even they denied even doing it."

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  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 866
    No one, regardless of client, CC / EC / Other*  should be able to hold a targeted spell and use any consumables without losing their targeted spell.   I assume this means you could also pre-cast any offensive spell and continuously heal & cure with consumables for the opportune time to drop the held spell.  That's pretty Garbo.

      I don't play EC, but i do have it installed, but both clients should be consistently usable & consistently functional.

    *other clients, cannot be mentioned here (which i always found ironic), but they shouldn't be usable for the most part.
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • PawainPawain Posts: 8,972
    edited April 2023
    Yoshi said:
      You have not quantified how "invulnerable" a player is by holding a spell

    "the best way to describe, is by using the protection spell and casting heal, normally if you're poisoned you then can't use that heal ofcourse, you have to cure and recast heal.
    Same with mortal shot, if you're mortalled you have to apple then recast the heal spell (or wait out the mortal)
    or if you're paralised or nerve striked, you would choose to either use trapped box and recast heal spell, or wait out the para/stun.
    using this, you can just do both so be invincible.

    But even without protection spell, you will still be invincible for same reasons. Can just hold heal spell and drink all potions/apples. .

    But moreover, you can hold say explode, and use shuriken continously until you Deadly poison the target and then drop the held explode only after successful DP. So this 100% negates any DCI or parrying a victim would have if you can continously throw shuriken until it succesfully hits without even having to recast your aggressive spell. Same with throwing explosion potions, Alchemist could hold flamestike spell, start explosion pot timer, 3...2...1 and drop both instantly on target.

    It's multi factor power increase and just doesn't work as a game.

    In group fights, normally people throw paralise fields to defend an area, if all mages can just cast flamestrike and run through para fields and set off trapped box without losing the flamestike, it negates para fields...

    that is just a few examples, but we're talking
    Shuriken/fukiya dart, trapped box, super nova, explode potion, heal potion, cure potion, enchanted apple, oh wow even refresh potion so you can hold spell and not be stamina blocked even, it's everything, it's all very imbalancing and don't work as a game.

    It's GOD mode,
    is way more powerful than having 3000 skill points"
    I can agree that it would be nice to chug a GCure while you are casting a heal.
    (one of the reasons that I can not talk on discord while playing.)
    I don't understand how this is a bug, you did not have to edit files to make it work.  The EC was made for macros.  We play on Computers. Games have been made easier to play by consumers since floppy drive games.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited April 2023
    “Ah okay not a bug to be invincible and everyone who plays CC if they want same must DL third party client and install all the scripts to do same, ah okay thanks Pawain.
    oh what’s that Pawain, you don’t us EC?
    oh what’s that Pawain, you never stepped into fel?
    thank you for your valuable feedback.

    I’m just going to dab a big red dot on my Pawain bingo card 

    let us let everyone be invincible just so they can play with one hand thanks”
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  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited April 2023
    CovenantX said:
    No one, regardless of client, CC / EC / Other*  should be able to hold a targeted spell and use any consumables without losing their targeted spell.   I assume this means you could also pre-cast any offensive spell and continuously heal & cure with consumables for the opportune time to drop the held spell.  That's pretty Garbo.

    “Yes,
    And yes it’s so obviously garbage

    its absolutely unreal, when you tell people about it in discord, they literally don’t believe it

    they need to make it so it’s not possible in EC or ANY client”
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  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited May 2023
    "people using this exploit in the wild now with explode potions and third party client,
    it's not particularly amusing.
    Combined with missing nerve strike debuff bug, can just kill someone instantly if they're not using the fix for this of auto trapped box - which is not available on CC
    so they should probably not allow entrance to fel at the moment to people on CC or at least give a warning box until these issues resolved"
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  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    " @Misk @Misk1 you understand the problem this is causing with such a fundemental change in intended game mechanics?"
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  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited June 2023
    "anyone know when @Misk @Misk1 returns, is he off sick long term? Hope it’s nothing serious

    people getting very very annoyed with this as this invincibility effect can be duplicated in 2d using scripts
    also, can swing bola on someone and hold poison/paralise spell for pet using this script also.

    Normally, to avoid a bola you can step off your mount when someone swings a bola so you're not on dismount timer (because there is another bug where you can't evade(spell)/parry bola), but people using this script - you will be stuck off mount as script user can both swing bola and hold spell target at same time so when you step off mount they can drop held spell on mount lol

    there's so many cheats you can perform with this bug,
    even holding corpse skin spell and throw conflagration potion
    but you need EC to perform this exploit or to use script on 2d - the ability doesn't come with 3rd party client by default, you have to install a seperate script for each object you're using the exploit on
    (i have scipt)"
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  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 866
    Devs likely won't be able to reproduce this (in CC) unless you PM them detailed information with whichever third-party client or scripts are used for this exploit.   Honestly the first time i saw this was in the video in the OP, haven't seen it since but i've only pvp'd for a few hours in the last couple weeks.

     
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    "I have sent them the script already, but i think it's unmanned email address"
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  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 866
    I'd suggest sending it in PM to Kyronix or Bleak, that's what I did with the pre-aos stun/disarm...

    did the same thing for the gen-chat crash but that was before these forums existed, so that one was dealt with on UOStratics forums (in PMs of course)
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited June 2023
    “Pawain thinks invincibility is working as intended, (so long as you’re using the script I have for 3rd party client)

    that’s funny cos I don’t read any script on uo wiki..

    and nothing about this ‘neat trick’ of invincibility on EC in wiki either… (the objects that are vulnerable to this exploit default are target cursor so you have to actively change a seemingly defunct setting to perform this exploit)”
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  • PawainPawain Posts: 8,972
    Yoshi said:
    “Pawain thinks invincibility is working as intended, (so long as you’re using the script I have for 3rd party client)

    that’s funny cos I don’t read any script on uo wiki..

    and nothing about this ‘neat trick’ of invincibility on EC in wiki either… (the objects that are vulnerable to this exploit default are target cursor so you have to actively change a seemingly defunct setting to perform this exploit)”
    So you constantly endorse a third party program that you give your log in info to, that does this exploit but the CC does not.  Makes lots of sense... and I am sure they have no way to fix the third party exploit client you use.  I can not reproduce this "exploit" in the CC.  That is all I use, maybe you do need to PvP with players like me,  Only use CC, have slow reflexes, stumble when pushing buttons.  Maybe you can win for a change.  Why do you call me here? I don't care about your PvP exploiting.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
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