Wraith form vs vampiric embrace leech inconsistency

2

Comments

  • UrgeUrge Posts: 1,134
    LilyGrace said:

    With everything above set aside, there's always been a segment of the population that prefers solo play but still enjoys being a part of the overall player community. 

    Talk of nerfing samps seems pretty odd to me anyway, when it's so easy for tamers to solo so much of the game's content (which is not to say they should be nerfed either). There are other templates I read about where players say they can solo most everything in the game.


    You seem bored, McDougle. You sound like another often bored player who posts here a lot. :-)

    I've always been outspoken against samps lol. The only thing i hate more are those ugly gargs. 

    There's absolutely nothing wrong with solo play but can you honestly say this isn't just a little bit OP especially combined with bush and onslaught?

    -one precast spell that lasts until death
    -only 99 skill points
    -unlimited amount of uninterrupted free heals with the life leech
    -stam regin to keep those max swings going
    -poison immunity on top of that

    Of course everyone fights to keep this from being toned down lol. It's always been ridiculous. 
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,742
    dvvid said:
    We aren’t going to ignore your posts if we don’t like what is suggested. You only want positive replies or none at all?  This is a place for discussions. You bring up a topic and people respond. 
    If only this was in fact the case....
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • FoosFoos Posts: 80
    McDougle said:
    The leeches with wraith form scale off spirit speak while vampiric embrace leeches do not .
    Proposed fixed
    Vampiric embrace leeches require spirt speak.

    This brings them in line not only with other necro forms but every other skill set that requires a support skill

    Dude, it's already been done.  You used to be able to cast Vampiric Embrace with a fraction of the Necromancy required today.  I think you only needed what 20?  Now you need 100.  This is just sour grapes.  If you change the game the player base will adapt to whatever rigged template takes its place.  I've seen it happen over the last 25 years a number of times in a number of different games.  It's like raising the minimum wage.  Total waste of time and energy.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,742
    Foos said:
    McDougle said:
    The leeches with wraith form scale off spirit speak while vampiric embrace leeches do not .
    Proposed fixed
    Vampiric embrace leeches require spirt speak.

    This brings them in line not only with other necro forms but every other skill set that requires a support skill

    Dude, it's already been done.  You used to be able to cast Vampiric Embrace with a fraction of the Necromancy required today.  I think you only needed what 20?  Now you need 100.  This is just sour grapes.  If you change the game the player base will adapt to whatever rigged template takes its place.  I've seen it happen over the last 25 years a number of times in a number of different games.  It's like raising the minimum wage.  Total waste of time and energy.
    100 necro not the issue however the leech should scale off spirit speak...
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • FoosFoos Posts: 80
    McDougle said:
    Foos said:
    McDougle said:
    The leeches with wraith form scale off spirit speak while vampiric embrace leeches do not .
    Proposed fixed
    Vampiric embrace leeches require spirt speak.

    This brings them in line not only with other necro forms but every other skill set that requires a support skill

    Dude, it's already been done.  You used to be able to cast Vampiric Embrace with a fraction of the Necromancy required today.  I think you only needed what 20?  Now you need 100.  This is just sour grapes.  If you change the game the player base will adapt to whatever rigged template takes its place.  I've seen it happen over the last 25 years a number of times in a number of different games.  It's like raising the minimum wage.  Total waste of time and energy.
    100 necro not the issue however the leech should scale off spirit speak...

    My point went completely over your head.  You can cast Wrath form with very little Necro, in fact you can use jewelry as far as I know and then just have spirit speak.  Okay?  Stay with me.  In the past Vampiric was the same way except you didn't need spirit speak.  So instead of making it so you needed spirit speak they raised the skill required to cast to 99.  My point was this has already been addressed years ago.

  • UrgeUrge Posts: 1,134
    Foos said:

    You used to be able to cast Vampiric Embrace with a fraction of the Necromancy required today.  I think you only needed what 20?  Now you need 100.

    If you change the game the player base will adapt to whatever rigged template takes its place. 
    I don't recall a skill requirement increase but i do remember +skill jewels to form up in wraith form then switching to regular jewels. That was changed. 

    You are right, people will adapt to a new fotm that will probably be even more obnoxious. 
  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 681
    edited September 2022
    Curse Weapon scales duration on spirit speak.  It's pretty useless with 0/20 spirit speak.  100+ spirit speak, and that's an incredibly powerful boost...

    Rather than nerfing skills and templates, the opposite should happen.  e.g. mage area effect spells -- chain light, meteor swarm -- should not get the damage cut based on the number of targets.  just one example.

    One thing that seems broken is the very seldom and minimal karma loss from at least using vamp form.  This should likely be ongoing karma loss, like wearing the cloak of corruption;  else, a giant karma reduction from entering the form (say -8000 karma).  It's also strange exiting the form leads to karma loss.

    side note, from early sort of tangential reply on this thread:

    Wraith form does indeed look silly in CC, the female wraith in EC isn't bad to look at. The male wraith form in EC appears to be the wrong graphic (the graphic used for some of the yamotsu priests is likely what it was supposed to be).

  • FoosFoos Posts: 80
    Curse Weapon scales duration on spirit speak.  It's pretty useless with 0/20 spirit speak.  100+ spirit speak, and that's an incredibly powerful boost...

    Rather than nerfing skills and templates, the opposite should happen.  e.g. mage area effect spells -- chain light, meteor swarm -- should not get the damage cut based on the number of targets.

    side note, from early sort of tangential reply on this thread:

    Wraith form does indeed look silly in CC, the female wraith in EC isn't bad to look at. The male wraith form in EC appears to be the wrong graphic (the graphic used for some of the yamotsu priests is likely what it was supposed to be).

    I mean I think the reason I got so annoyed with the original post is because he singled out Sampires as being all powerful and suggested to fix the game by breaking Sampires.  TBH I have tamers, sampires, archers, throwers, and dexers with healing.  They all have a time and place depending on the boss I'm fighting.  Sampires actually cannot solo every boss in the game.  I give them a solid shot at Doom but even there without a bard there will be blood.
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 1,134
    Foos said:

    I mean I think the reason I got so annoyed with the original post is because he singled out Sampires as being all powerful and suggested to fix the game by breaking Sampires. 
     
    Sampires actually cannot solo every boss in the game.  I give them a solid shot at Doom but even there without a bard there will be blood.

    Vamp form always has been OP.

    When the -fire resist meant something it sort of equaled out but since every other mob corpse has overcapped armor in it now, there really is no downside to using it. Every other form has some sort of disadvantage. 

    Dude on youtube rocks doom in 20min with a single solo samp. 

    End of the day, they're not going to do anything and we're all left just talking s**t. 
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,877
    Urge said:
    Foos said:

    I mean I think the reason I got so annoyed with the original post is because he singled out Sampires as being all powerful and suggested to fix the game by breaking Sampires. 
     
    Sampires actually cannot solo every boss in the game.  I give them a solid shot at Doom but even there without a bard there will be blood.

    Vamp form always has been OP.

    When the -fire resist meant something it sort of equaled out but since every other mob corpse has overcapped armor in it now, there really is no downside to using it. Every other form has some sort of disadvantage. 

    Dude on youtube rocks doom in 20min with a single solo samp. 

    End of the day, they're not going to do anything and we're all left just talking s**t. 
    Ultima Online kill Doom 5 bosses and Dark Father in 20 minutes with a single Sampire with no help?

    Show us the link.

    Are you in the right forum? Not Doom FPS game?
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,877
    Mages Attack Spell requires secondary skills, I.e. mysticism, magery, necromancy.

    Bushido, Ninjitsu, Chivalry have warrior only spells that work with only weapon attacks and they don't rely on secondary skills to determine the strength. VE is also included as it only works with weapon attacks, not spell attacks. Consistent.

    Wraith Form leech mana from both attack spell and weapon attacks. As such it requires SS. Consistent.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • Urge said:


    Dude on youtube rocks doom in 20min with a single solo samp. 

    This was sort of my point earlier. Whoever that is in the video, is not your average casual player. 

    My half decent sampire with half decent gear is run by this average casual player. I really enjoy PvM but I'll never be super great at fighting the tougher stuff. There's plenty out there that I can't solo.

    You can't just nerf the highly skilled players. At the end of the day, nerfing players who know to the nth degree how to create and outfit their builds with super effectiveness would really only make game play more difficult for those of us who don't have super-builds or skills. 

    If you look at it on the flip side, it's not much different than me asking for an easy button that would make up for my not having the best gear and not being as skilled a fighter as the guy who solos doom.

     


  • UrgeUrge Posts: 1,134
    edited September 2022
    Seth said:
    Urge said:
    Foos said:

    I mean I think the reason I got so annoyed with the original post is because he singled out Sampires as being all powerful and suggested to fix the game by breaking Sampires. 
     
    Sampires actually cannot solo every boss in the game.  I give them a solid shot at Doom but even there without a bard there will be blood.

    Vamp form always has been OP.

    When the -fire resist meant something it sort of equaled out but since every other mob corpse has overcapped armor in it now, there really is no downside to using it. Every other form has some sort of disadvantage. 

    Dude on youtube rocks doom in 20min with a single solo samp. 

    End of the day, they're not going to do anything and we're all left just talking s**t. 
    Ultima Online kill Doom 5 bosses and Dark Father in 20 minutes with a single Sampire with no help?

    Show us the link.

    Are you in the right forum? Not Doom FPS game?

    You would. I don't save history but I'll hunt it again.

    Edit: Found it 
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 1,134
    edited September 2022
    LilyGrace said:
    Urge said:


    Dude on youtube rocks doom in 20min with a single solo samp. 

    This was sort of my point earlier. Whoever that is in the video, is not your average casual player. 

    My half decent sampire with half decent gear is run by this average casual player. I really enjoy PvM but I'll never be super great at fighting the tougher stuff. There's plenty out there that I can't solo.

    You can't just nerf the highly skilled players. At the end of the day, nerfing players who know to the nth degree how to create and outfit their builds with super effectiveness would really only make game play more difficult for those of us who don't have super-builds or skills. 

    If you look at it on the flip side, it's not much different than me asking for an easy button that would make up for my not having the best gear and not being as skilled a fighter as the guy who solos doom.


    Oh i don't really care either way it's just my opinion VE is OP and my personal hatred for samps. 

    :>)

    I use vamp too just not a typical samp build. 4/6 chiv vamp with 18hpr, healing and a shield. 
  • Aww come on, Urge. You’d like my mediocre samp if you gave her half a chance. 
      :D
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,742
    LilyGrace said:
    Aww come on, Urge. You’d like my mediocre samp if you gave her half a chance. 
      :D
    It's not diversity if we see three builds 90% of the time..
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 8,100
    McDougle said:
    LilyGrace said:
    Aww come on, Urge. You’d like my mediocre samp if you gave her half a chance. 
      :D
    It's not diversity if we see three builds 90% of the time..
    That's what happens when you encourage everyone to ride the easy bus.  My Samp has SS.

    Resist the easy bus!
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • That change wouldn't affect me. My Sampires already have GM SS. Curse Weapon+Vamp Form=70% Hit Life Drain, 3.5x more self healing than the usual Sampire. Lets me laugh off a 110 damage hit from Chief Paroxy, which would send other Sampires running and screaming for their mommy. Corpse Skin+Onslaught is powerful too, -31 Fire or Poison Resist at 120 Swords/GM Tact/Lvl 3 Primer. Can also use Wraith Form+Curse Weapon if i want to be really cheeky with Drains.

    Vampiric Embrace should also be a viable PvP form and some of its drawbacks removed.

    It used to be. Necro/Mages used to run around in Vampire Form all the time, until they made any Garlic spell damage the caster in Vamp Form, even with 100% LRC. There were a few bugs/exploits that allowed Life Drain to apply to spells too.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 3,322
    edited September 2022
    “Sampire is very strong for pvp, there is a bug that undead slayer spellbook does not deal any extra damage to undead player forms so they are immune to undead slayer from mages. So there’s no negative for being in undead form vs mage.

    This bug never got fixed and is still active today.

    sampire with a splintering weapon can take down any mage”
    Posts on this account have been pre filtered from personal comment or opinion in an effort to suppress conservative views in order to protect the reader.
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,877
    Urge said:
    LilyGrace said:
    Urge said:


    Dude on youtube rocks doom in 20min with a single solo samp. 

    This was sort of my point earlier. Whoever that is in the video, is not your average casual player. 

    My half decent sampire with half decent gear is run by this average casual player. I really enjoy PvM but I'll never be super great at fighting the tougher stuff. There's plenty out there that I can't solo.

    You can't just nerf the highly skilled players. At the end of the day, nerfing players who know to the nth degree how to create and outfit their builds with super effectiveness would really only make game play more difficult for those of us who don't have super-builds or skills. 

    If you look at it on the flip side, it's not much different than me asking for an easy button that would make up for my not having the best gear and not being as skilled a fighter as the guy who solos doom.


    Oh i don't really care either way it's just my opinion VE is OP and my personal hatred for samps. 

    :>)

    I use vamp too just not a typical samp build. 4/6 chiv vamp with 18hpr, healing and a shield. 
    Wow that is nice, tamers can probably do faster.

    Sampires are OP as one can solo all the bosses, so where is your own video for all the bosses at Shadowguard and Underwater. I would like to see those asking for this with their own video.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,877
    That change wouldn't affect me. My Sampires already have GM SS. Curse Weapon+Vamp Form=70% Hit Life Drain, 3.5x more self healing than the usual Sampire. Lets me laugh off a 110 damage hit from Chief Paroxy, which would send other Sampires running and screaming for their mommy. Corpse Skin+Onslaught is powerful too, -31 Fire or Poison Resist at 120 Swords/GM Tact/Lvl 3 Primer. Can also use Wraith Form+Curse Weapon if i want to be really cheeky with Drains.

    Vampiric Embrace should also be a viable PvP form and some of its drawbacks removed.

    It used to be. Necro/Mages used to run around in Vampire Form all the time, until they made any Garlic spell damage the caster in Vamp Form, even with 100% LRC. There were a few bugs/exploits that allowed Life Drain to apply to spells too.
    Can your build solo all the bosses?
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,877
    Seth said:
    Mages Attack Spell requires secondary skills, I.e. mysticism, magery, necromancy.

    Bushido, Ninjitsu, Chivalry have warrior only spells that work with only weapon attacks and they don't rely on secondary skills to determine the strength. VE is also included as it only works with weapon attacks, not spell attacks. Consistent.

    Wraith Form leech mana from both attack spell and weapon attacks. As such it requires SS. Consistent.McDougle said:
    LilyGrace said:
    Aww come on, Urge. You’d like my mediocre samp if you gave her half a chance. 
      :D
    It's not diversity if we see three builds 90% of the time..
    don't change topics it's not about diversity as there are more tamers than samps.

    It's about consistency.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,742
    Seth said:
    Seth said:
    Mages Attack Spell requires secondary skills, I.e. mysticism, magery, necromancy.

    Bushido, Ninjitsu, Chivalry have warrior only spells that work with only weapon attacks and they don't rely on secondary skills to determine the strength. VE is also included as it only works with weapon attacks, not spell attacks. Consistent.

    Wraith Form leech mana from both attack spell and weapon attacks. As such it requires SS. Consistent.McDougle said:
    LilyGrace said:
    Aww come on, Urge. You’d like my mediocre samp if you gave her half a chance. 
      :D
    It's not diversity if we see three builds 90% of the time..
    don't change topics it's not about diversity as there are more tamers than samps.

    It's about consistency.
    Allowing bugs/exploit/shoddy coding creates the narrow amount of builds so the imbalance in forms is perfectly about diversity 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • McDougle said:
    LilyGrace said:
    Aww come on, Urge. You’d like my mediocre samp if you gave her half a chance. 
      :D
    It's not diversity if we see three builds 90% of the time..
    If you're limiting the diversity of your character templates based on an exact formula for skills, stats and gear that's perceived to offer, arguably, the most supreme build for a character type, whose fault is that? 

    On the one hand you're asking for everything and everyone to be absolutely equal. Nerf this, nerf that, give us an easy button here and one here. 

    But at the same time, you're complaining about a lack of diversity in template building. Be your own Harrison Bergeron, McDougle. Go find something fun to do in the game and go do it.

     
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,742
    LilyGrace said:
    McDougle said:
    LilyGrace said:
    Aww come on, Urge. You’d like my mediocre samp if you gave her half a chance. 
      :D
    It's not diversity if we see three builds 90% of the time..
    If you're limiting the diversity of your character templates based on an exact formula for skills, stats and gear that's perceived to offer, arguably, the most supreme build for a character type, whose fault is that? 

    On the one hand you're asking for everything and everyone to be absolutely equal. Nerf this, nerf that, give us an easy button here and one here. 

    But at the same time, you're complaining about a lack of diversity in template building. Be your own Harrison Bergeron, McDougle. Go find something fun to do in the game and go do it.

     
    Fixing the issue that allows these exploits to work would in fact make people try new things you and paddy cakes keep saying easy button while defending sampires the ultimate easy 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • I don't keep saying anything. But thanks for thoughtful rebuttal. Imma go find something enjoyable to do, let you alone to sit and whine to your heart's content. 
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,742
    LilyGrace said:
    I don't keep saying anything. But thanks for thoughtful rebuttal. Imma go find something enjoyable to do, let you alone to sit and whine to your heart's content. 
    It's easy to post and play get gud  ;)
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • LilyGraceLilyGrace Posts: 674
    edited September 2022
    I could understand looking to even things out if you were talking about something like improving macers and fencers. Since High Seas was first introduced, I've been hoping to be able to build a more decent swashbuckler type. But what can you do when the biggest and latest thing introduced to high seas requires range fighting?  Pets and magery aren't my idea of how a pirate hunter would go into battle. 

    But no, instead you talk about nerfs for this, nerfs for that. Make this and that easier. And when you can't truly support your whining, you start with sarcasm and insults. You can't be taken seriously. 
  • FortisFortis Posts: 394
    My first wish on the list is to add an option on this forum to dont see any mcdougle comments or threads...still dreaming maybe the option to block someone will come one day.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,742
    LilyGrace said:
    I could understand looking to even things out if you were talking about something like improving macers and fencers. Since High Seas was first introduced, I've been hoping to be able to build a more decent swashbuckler type. But what can you do when the biggest and latest thing introduced to high seas requires range fighting?  Pets and magery aren't my idea of how a pirate hunter would go into battle. 

    But no, instead you talk about nerfs for this, nerfs for that. Make this and that easier. And when you can't truly support your whining, you start with sarcasm and insults. You can't be taken seriously. 
    I offered a suggestion that all forms and support skill work uniformly is this asking for nerfs or easy button? See it's twisted that I'm the forum villain when it's the sugar troll gang that attacks anyone who suggests its not all rainbows and butterflies..until i defend myself and the admins decide to suddenly enforce the tos..
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
This discussion has been closed.