Power Creep? I don't see it. Unless your tamer.

Iv seen on these boards discussed in various threads relating to rewards the idea of "Power creep".
How weapons can't possibly be better, because everything gets to easy. etc etc.
I just don't see how this jives with current state of the game.  I say this because everyone knows and acknowledges that tamers are bar none- unmatched, in just about everyway.  Need a tank? pet.  Need damage pet.  There are few instances where anything else is ACTAULLY better.  

So what I am getting at is, being that taming will never be nerfed, it seems like everyone else NEEDS SOME DAMN POWER CREEP.  

What I am asking all of you is to explain to me what I am missing.  

Comments

  • PawainPawain Posts: 4,882
    Ask @popps
  • DragoDrago Posts: 237
    I can solo alot more content, faster and easier with my sampire than my tamer.
  • SethSeth Posts: 1,404
    Drago said:
    I can solo alot more content, faster and easier with my sampire than my tamer.
    ok, next event we suggest whole dungeons of paragons only. Or All the Event type bosses only. Good luck to your sampire.

    Tamer? 

    All follow
    All Kill
    *eats popcorn*
    We love bugs....
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 1,549
    Seth said:
    Drago said:
    I can solo alot more content, faster and easier with my sampire than my tamer.
    ok, next event we suggest whole dungeons of paragons only. Or All the Event type bosses only. Good luck to your sampire.

    Tamer? 

    All follow
    All Kill
    *eats popcorn*
    You guys know you have to keep both yourself and your pet alive right? And that monsters retarget like crazy especially when sampire run by...
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,483
    Iv seen on these boards discussed in various threads relating to rewards the idea of "Power creep".
    How weapons can't possibly be better, because everything gets to easy. etc etc.
    I just don't see how this jives with current state of the game.  I say this because everyone knows and acknowledges that tamers are bar none- unmatched, in just about everyway.  Need a tank? pet.  Need damage pet.  There are few instances where anything else is ACTAULLY better.  

    So what I am getting at is, being that taming will never be nerfed, it seems like everyone else NEEDS SOME DAMN POWER CREEP.  

    What I am asking all of you is to explain to me what I am missing.  
    @meltedmantis

    You are being sarcastic, right ?

    Pets can in NO WAY kill anything as fast as Warriors/Sampires.

    Tank, perhaps yes, but kill fast ? NO WAY.

    And if the Warriors are 2 cross healing one another, well, they can take down pretty much anything there is in the game quite easily.

    Taming IS nerfed, when you compare to what Warriors/Sampires can kill and how fast they can do it.

    - Pets do half damage in PvM (the latest Events Paragons being an example of this);

    - MoBs most always retargeting  making it difficult for the Tamer to stay there and heal the pet ;

    - MoBs doing AoE damage making it almost impossible to use Veterinary to heal a pet, saved a few, rare exceptions ;

    - Way slow casting spells make it harder for a Tamer to keep up helping one's own pet, often, with how hard some MoBs hit pets, by the time a heal is cast (tamer with protection on), the pet has already taken heavy damage.... not to mention the poisoning of pets and the Tamers having to recast from heals to cures all the time which, when having protection on, means a very very long time before the pet actually gets healed up...

    - Pets always changing target even if the Tamer has 120 Animal Lore and 120 Animal Taming making it extremely annoying to always say All Kill and target the one Mob that one wants killed, it often happens to me that I command All Kill to the nearest MoB and then, after attacking it, the pet immediately retargets onto a MoB that is farther away leaving the Tamer exposed to being attacked by that nearer MoB....

    - The pet Ball of summoning having lots of places where it does not work. The Ball is important because many times, it could be used to save a pet from dyeing and thus loosing skill points which then have to be regained... yet, yelling All Follow me often simply does nothing when the pet is being aggroed by several MoBs.... if the Tamer was to be able to run away in a safer place and use the Ball of Summoning, instead, this would save the pet a needless death and thus avoid it to loose skil points upon dyeing...

    - Tamers being revealed all the time and thus having a hard time being able to stay by their pet to help it (this especially with the new Paragons, as it has been already pointed out);

    - Pets' pathfinding being very lacking, oddily enough, Paragons can very well go around ANYTHING and get to the player being targeted but a pet cannot use the same pathfinding that Paragons use and gets stuck anywhere and so easily ?

    These are only some of the most annoying nerfs hurting much Taming, one could go on and on and on with stuff that makes playing a Tamer way less enjoyable....

    And then one wonders why a whole lot of players prefer using a Warrior/Sampire or variations instead ?
  • meltedmantismeltedmantis Posts: 29
    edited September 9
    see this is kinda what i wondered. and i hear what your saying, but all popps counters, don't really address my points, nor does it live up to what seems to be the real state of the game.
    I mean thats a nice list of why tamers arn't perfect but ALOT of that seems to CONFIRM my point.   For example, The issues with pet pathing and such in the fire dungoen event seemed to have been intentional because of the tamer power lvl.  

    I also find it interesting your point on 2 samps...  Samp is really the only other real viable build and yet with 2 of them they can do so and so.... well what about 2 tamers then.

    Again much of what your saying does not reflect what I'm experiencing.  While there were of samps doing fel fire champ, most in fire were tamers, and almost ALL the players able to solo balron paras were tamers.

    I find it hard to believe that pets don't out damage most melee/archers (outside of short term burst damage) my tamer that I don't play, has a dog i bought for nothing in magicna that will hit consistently for 140-150.  My archer, if set up just right, Triple slayer, max damage inc, 3 chiv damage boosters, tactics and anato, hits for 220 tops., without having 800-1200 hps at my disposable, and all the other little pet perks. 

    And again lets look at most tamers and most non-tamers,  most folks I know don't have a cameo of every type so they can compete with All kill no skill
  • And this is no second account I can be found as Mantis on LS.  Feel free to drop by and discuss, or lets match my maxxed out archer to some pets and see if they really compare when fighting mobs, epecially with a active tamer that just doesn't all kill inviso repeat.
    Or how about the damage ability of my maxxed ninja ( no where even close to a pet i bet).
  • quickbladequickblade Posts: 197
    edited September 9
    Bro a tamer can't even solo Semidar, and a sampire kill semidar in less than 5 minutes, is this thread a joke or what ?
  • meltedmantismeltedmantis Posts: 29
    edited September 9
    Bro a tamer can't even solo Semidar, and a sampire kill semidar in less than 5 minutes, is this thread a joke or what ?
    ok thats a single example of one mob. come on give me a break 

    Bro a samp can't even solo the dragon in guard, a dog can in 10 mins.  This a joke or what?  see why that kind of thinking is invalid? we could go back and forth all day
  • SethSeth Posts: 1,404
    edited September 9
    Bro a tamer can't even solo Semidar, and a sampire kill semidar in 5 minutes, is this thread a joke or what ?
    That is legacy, the new world order says Sampire is overpowered. This is why Sampire gets kicked in all new events by aura of nausea and anti life leech. Easier to play tamer and get a few players behind chain healing, like the events.

    Another best thing is tamer don't have to repair expensive armor or weapons.
     

    We love bugs....
  • quickbladequickblade Posts: 197
    edited September 9
    Any champ spawns a sampire can solo between 10-20min, tamer expect to be  45min to 1 hour +.

    Sampire can't kill the dragon ? I dont know where you take this from ? But my sampire can solo that dragon in shadowguard, in less than 10minute like you said your dog can. The thing is I could enumerate alot more than 1 boss where sampire outperforms tamer, but at this point its just case by case, and there are alot of bosses in UO. I'm just trying to be general here. In general sampire outperforms tamer in pvm content,  and everyone agree on that except you apparantly.

    Tell me a pet that can tank a whole level 4 of a spawn, and do 300 dmg aoe non-stop every 1,25sec, only a sampire can do that, by pressing one button : whirlwind, oh and counter-attack/evade, very op.

    Yes the game has became a 2 roles mostly , it's either sampire or tamer, mages and archers are situational only (* cought exodus *) myself I hold the record of the highest word of death (1966 dmg) spell coming from a spellweaver / mage on a Dark Father, does that make that class super op in general ? Not really, try your tamer in doom and come tell me about it, compared to a sampire.

    Don't get me wrong each class can performs really good in certain situation, where sampires tend to performs too good everywhere.
  • meltedmantismeltedmantis Posts: 29
    edited September 9
    I also I will add, I don't find it very compelling that there only ONE other build that people are even willing to stack up against taming.  UO.  the game of 2 classes.  tamer or samp.  and even then lets be honest tamer is better.  

    Thats what cracks me up.  IN game, everyone knows tamers are preferred in most senerios, but you try to talk about it.  BUT SAMPIRES CAN KILL ONE THING!!! 
  • quickbladequickblade Posts: 197
    edited September 9
    Aoe or single target , im sorry but sampire win over tamer, not only he outperform in term of dmg but he leechs all that into health, whirlwind is broken. They have parry and resisting spells, most tamer dont have that so if you want to compare defenses, sampire also wins on that aspect. Sampire have nearly infinite mana, infinite leeching health, and crazy aoe coming from whirlwind and hit area effects, tamer has nothing of that, you need to constantly heal your pet under pressure, and you can run out of mana, when you are out of mana , you can't swing 2 hits and be full like a sampire does.
  • Ok again your saying thats that just don't reflect reality.  
    I have a tamer... im not completely ignorant of how they work.  mine has decent but not great gear and i can tell you that i easier regen mana faster then I could possibly cast GH.


    "Sampire have nearly infinite mana, infinite leeching health, and crazy aoe coming from whirlwind and hit area effects, tamer has nothing of that"

    I almost agree then you got disingenuous.    the tamer has at his disposal all the abilties and benefits of its particular pet at the time.

    Now lets put ALL THIS ASIDE because now this has become nothing more then "Wait sampires have some advantages".  Ok.  so what, no shit, never said they didn't.  I said MOST of the time in MOST ( not all---- can you read ..... not all) situations the tamer is far better.  Iv yet to see a samp, the only build that competes at all solo guard, why is that?  The way you guys talk EVERYONE plays samp ALL the time because they are so OP.  again NOT REALITY.  login take a screenshot of luna, whats the percentage of players with a dog? lol. hmm wonder why?

    I was hoping for a little interesting discussion, clearly everyone else is satisfied that the game is become boiled down to 2 very specific builds, and 95% of the player base walks around with a dog.  It's not like they are coming out with special skins for them or anything...

    anyway back to your circle jerk






  • NorryNorry Posts: 376
    Tamers cant do paraoxamous or however ya spell it.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 4,882
    edited September 9
    And this is no second account I can be found as Mantis on LS.  Feel free to drop by and discuss, or lets match my maxxed out archer to some pets and see if they really compare when fighting mobs, epecially with a active tamer that just doesn't all kill inviso repeat.
    Or how about the damage ability of my maxxed ninja ( no where even close to a pet i bet).
    I was wondering if that was you. You can not compare LS to other shards. We were basically a taming shard until a few months ago. Some new/returning players came in and are using Other templates. We like this play style and will not change.

    LS has more tamers and pets than all the other non Atlantic shards combined. Wait till the holiday events, more of them will appear.

    When I use my archer/tamer, the archer does a lot more damage than the pet.
  • SlissSliss Posts: 273
    Ok again your saying thats that just don't reflect reality.  
    I have a tamer... im not completely ignorant of how they work.  mine has decent but not great gear and i can tell you that i easier regen mana faster then I could possibly cast GH.


    "Sampire have nearly infinite mana, infinite leeching health, and crazy aoe coming from whirlwind and hit area effects, tamer has nothing of that"

    I almost agree then you got disingenuous.    the tamer has at his disposal all the abilties and benefits of its particular pet at the time.

    You do seem to be either ignorant or trolling. A pet cannot leech mana or health, and once it's mana pool is done, those abilities are few and far between. A samp can chain AIs and special moves all the while keeping themselves healed, and being able to match the slayer and damage type. They are not even in the same zip code with tamers in effectiveness.
    Now lets put ALL THIS ASIDE because now this has become nothing more then "Wait sampires have some advantages".  Ok.  so what, no shit, never said they didn't.  I said MOST of the time in MOST ( not all---- can you read ..... not all) situations the tamer is far better.  Iv yet to see a samp, the only build that competes at all solo guard, why is that? 
    Look some more. There tons of videos of Samps doing all of the Shadowguard. Pretty much every high end player that is farming the roof is using samps, not tamers.
    The way you guys talk EVERYONE plays samp ALL the time because they are so OP.  again NOT REALITY.  login take a screenshot of luna, whats the percentage of players with a dog? lol. hmm wonder why?

    That's an easy one. UO is one of the grindiest games out there. A pet can be used with relatively little interaction compared to a Sampire. When you get another even where in order to get good rewards you have to do the same stuff for hours daily for months, using a pet is a good idea if you want to keep your sanity and save your wrists. Being able to watch Youtube while playing, makes the grind a bit more bearable. You pay for it with lower kill/reward numbers compared to Samps.
  • poppspopps Posts: 2,483
    edited September 9
    see this is kinda what i wondered. and i hear what your saying, but all popps counters, don't really address my points, nor does it live up to what seems to be the real state of the game.
    I mean thats a nice list of why tamers arn't perfect but ALOT of that seems to CONFIRM my point.   For example, The issues with pet pathing and such in the fire dungoen event seemed to have been intentional because of the tamer power lvl.  

    I also find it interesting your point on 2 samps...  Samp is really the only other real viable build and yet with 2 of them they can do so and so.... well what about 2 tamers then.

    Again much of what your saying does not reflect what I'm experiencing.  While there were of samps doing fel fire champ, most in fire were tamers, and almost ALL the players able to solo balron paras were tamers.

    I find it hard to believe that pets don't out damage most melee/archers (outside of short term burst damage) my tamer that I don't play, has a dog i bought for nothing in magicna that will hit consistently for 140-150.  My archer, if set up just right, Triple slayer, max damage inc, 3 chiv damage boosters, tactics and anato, hits for 220 tops., without having 800-1200 hps at my disposable, and all the other little pet perks. 

    And again lets look at most tamers and most non-tamers,  most folks I know don't have a cameo of every type so they can compete with All kill no skill
    The REAL state of the game is, that if one goes to these "Treasures of" Dynamic Events, what one sees for the MOST part is Warriors/Sampires or variations of, NOT Tamers.

    And no, what 2 Warriors cross healing one another is unthinkable for 2 Tamers.

    A pet, simply cannot deliver as much damage as a Dexer with their Slayers.

    A pet can be used to tank a MoB while the Tamer does some damage, if the Tamer Template is tailored to do additional damage, but there is simly NOT a chance that a pet can do anywhere not even close to the damage that Dexers can do with their Slayers.

    That is odd, because what I saw soloing Paragon Balrons where Warriors, NOT Tamers....

    One of them was quite impressive, he/she was a Fencer Gargoyle using a Whip (I guess for the Armor Pierce and the Whirwind)... took a little time to take the Paragon Balron down, but he/she did it handling the damage quite well... I was checking the health bar and I never saw it going down too much. Forget about getting the same job done with a pet....

    And again lets look at most tamers and most non-tamers,  most folks I know don't have a cameo of every type so they can compete with All kill no skill

    Well, the Warriors/Sampires that do the most damage do use Cameos AND Slayer Weapons...

    Without Cameos they still do quite a bit of damage in a short time...

    Truth is, that, andby an overwhelming majority, players use Warriors/Sampires for these Events, NOT Tamers or other Templates...

    Sure, you still see Tamers, but nowhere near the numbers of these Warriors/Sampires and that tells something.

    I was hoping for a little interesting discussion, clearly everyone else is satisfied that the game is become boiled down to 2 very specific builds, and 95% of the player base walks around with a dog.  It's not like they are coming out with special skins for them or anything...

    I have been bugging the Developers since these "Treasures of" Dynamic Events started to please Design them for also other Templates to be competitive in getting a good rate of Artifact drops....

    Yet, so far, they seem to be pretty much mostly for Warriors/Sampires and their variations of....

    I sure ghope that we'll see more love for other types of Templates to also be competitive in their drops' rates in future implementations of these Treasures of Dynamic Events and not have them keep being the domain of Warriors/Sampires and their variations of.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 4,882
    edited September 9
    @popps he is from LS.  We used tamers there.  The guy who got the most Tram drops was a tamer.  He is not gonna fall for your BS that tamers can't do these events. 

    All he sees are tamers that's why he thinks they are OP.

    But he is exaggerating that everyone on LS has Cameos.  We do the Roof a lot but Cameos are not frequent.

    Also he must have not noticed my archer killing stuff in Wildfire before any other template could hit the Mob once.

    I never saw him help me with a Paragons so I never looked at his equipment.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 1,549
    Wait until my bard does it!
  • ChupaChupa Posts: 3
    sorry for bothering because i haven't really even inspected what for you asking this and i beg a pardon for my maybe useless comment because i haven't read and all discussion and have no clue what you are all talking about in this post but as i saw and think that my foundings during finished last event can be helpful if i was myself less mindless then all my stables with bestias... I tryed Herding and have found it very helpful with all those paragons - my pet was at the first stage and i did it from hiding (tryed only as magery invisibility, but i think hiding and stealth could have a minute to be used too and it is fail that i missed a try of it) that was sometimes even cool: i could buff all sw and mastery things and just hide then command pet to move forward then i used consume damage from a distance and run away for 16 tiles from the fight (discordance was useful as a pet or by my character). So i even tryed to get blessed or newbie (or smth) crook for that and sometimes i was thinking even about camping skill or something like that for fast log out before those crazy paragons will be on way to me according to pet's wishes leave da battle and have a course to me (why they would need that if they are in a fight i still have no idea) sometimes pets just turned around from the fight and mob and goes to me with crazy balron behind theirs backs and i even couldn't try to command them to go out from me such unskilled in using herding skill i was but all need practise and i would! Hope my foundations would be helpful and maybe there is a tamer who intent more then me in discover things that tamer must do or mother nature will eat us all for da glory of da paragons fury if we will not discover even pets can't think for us and all we can is to find da ways to survive in many of what
  • MariahMariah Posts: 1,770Moderator
    Some unhelpful posts have been removed. Please don't troll.
  • PlayerSkillFTWPlayerSkillFTW Posts: 250
    edited September 10
    While pets do make for some great Tanks (except for against stuff with Chief Paroxysmus' Pet Eating AI), they do not dish out the highest damage in most instances. Especially when it comes to AoE, even the best AoE Pet (FWW+PB Najasaurus) can't compete with a Sampire or Warrior in terms of AoE damage output. Pets can be specialized towards providing debuffs to an opponent (Disco+CB Tritons, RC+AP Beetles), but those pets in and of themselves aren't dishing out tons of damage, they're boosting everyone else's damage output.

    During the Treasures of Wildfire Event, my Macer/Paladin (not even a Sampire) could solo Para Balrons if i was careful. With a Mage healing me, i took on two Para Balrons at the same time, and won. If i found another Warrior with Healing, we could x-heal each other and easily take on anything in the dungeon. I found it easier though just to bring in my Death Ray Tamer/Mage © and let his 120 Disco+CB Triton tank the Para Balron, and have my Chiv/Macer beat on the Para Balron. My Macer was by far outdamaging the pet.

    Dexxers could get around and kill much faster than Tamers could during the "Treasures of " events, so Dexxers had a much better kill rate and drop rate. Not to mention pets were dealing half damage to the Paragons in the "Treasures of " events. Even without that half damage, the dexxers would still outdamage pets.

    Double Strike oftentimes outperformed AI against most mobs during the past 3 "Treasures of " Events, the exception being Spectral Armors and Balrons. Pets and Throwers don't have access to Double Strike/Shot, while most Archers simply stick to Composite Bows for AI, and don't use Repeating Crossbows/Yumis.
    Against the Great Ape, i can lower him to 4-7% Fire Resist, and consistently deliver 300+ total damage Double Strikes with my Sampire, while my 120 Chiv+AI 100% Fire Crimson Drake only deals 200-220 damage a hit during EoO (which the pet randomly toggles on/off) to him. That's a foe that doesn't even have a Slayer...

    popps said:
    One of them was quite impressive, he/she was a Fencer Gargoyle using a Whip (I guess for the Armor Pierce and the Whirwind)... took a little time to take the Paragon Balron down, but he/she did it handling the damage quite well... I was checking the health bar and I never saw it going down too much. Forget about getting the same job done with a pet....
    That Fencer was also likely using the Fencing Mastery "Pierce", to drop the Para Balron down to 0% Stamina so it'd swing really slow (why her Health was barely moving). My Macer would achieve the same effect with a 50% Hit Fatigue Demon Slayer Hammer Pick, but would also apply the Macing Mastery "Stagger" to reduce their SSI by 60%. -60% SSI with 0% Stamina means their swings were so slow i could 4 sec bandy heal myself between them.
  • DragoDrago Posts: 237
    Tamer = Best against raid mobs (Scalis, UW, EM events ,  Blackthorn, etc..)
    Sampire = Best in quick kill and most non-raid mobs.

    And building a sampire is not easy.  It took me months to find my sweet spot.  This involves right gear combo, skill combo and most importantly,  macros and timing.  Even now I still die from a macro misfire.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 1,549
    I don't know what you folks are doing wrong but any of my straight pally warriors can keep up with tamer and sampire alike...be it swordswoman archer or thrower 
  • GidgeGidge Posts: 408
    Seth said:
    Bro a tamer can't even solo Semidar, and a sampire kill semidar in 5 minutes, is this thread a joke or what ?
    That is legacy, the new world order says Sampire is overpowered. This is why Sampire gets kicked in all new events by aura of nausea and anti life leech. Easier to play tamer and get a few players behind chain healing, like the events.

    Another best thing is tamer don't have to repair expensive armor or weapons.
     


    My tamers armour takes a beating and needs repair often. It depends on your play style and some things deteriorate with spell casting.
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