Dev Team Recommendations : Low Hanging Fruit

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  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,246
    edited March 2021
    Galluccio said:
    There's a lot of people in this game who are going after cutting edge gear and not a lot of people who are just starting out doing basic content.  Also, Ultima Online was more of a RPG stand alone game.  People didn't really play the game just to get the best gear.  There were more elements to the game than just the gear.   There was an actual story line and objectives which had nothing to do with cutting edge loot.  


    Until they put properties on items.

    If you put properties on items that enhance performance and have maximum caps, and you have competitive elements such as pvp, it stands to reason players must go for cutting edge.

    I can understand players not playing in those areas, not being so bothered about gear. If you play in competitive areas, it's a must have.

  • SethSeth Posts: 2,904
    edited March 2021
    Ok regardless if the new items may be based on potions, but the question is how to make existing rewards more attractive to acquire. 

    I think a system like Doom may work but that require new recipes.  Another way is to turn in for an even better item directly like Treasures event.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 1,109Dev
    Any kind of crafting update, especially where we are using existing items as ingredients for new item rapidly increases the scope of the update.  It's not "just updating numbers in a table".  
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,080
    edited March 2021
    @Kyronix - Are you saying it is easier / less work to simply create a new item? I'd assume the easiest of this would be via the treasures of / black market menu gumps?

    **After reading this it sounds like I'm being a smart@$$ but it's a serious question. If it's easier to make a brand new item then we should be suggesting those type items instead of recipe type items.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,246
    keven2002 said:
    @ Kyronix - Are you saying it is easier / less work to simply create a new item? I'd assume the easiest of this would be via the treasures of / black market menu gumps?

    **After reading this it sounds like I'm being a smart@ $$ but it's a serious question. If it's easier to make a brand new item then we should be suggesting those type items instead of recipe type items.


    @kyronix ,

    Agreeing with Kevin here, I think I said it before, we are not quite understanding where you are coming from.

    Give us the parameters of what is workable :)

    You could almost just wipe all current Doom rewards, or Collection rewards, or Champ Spawn rewards, or VvV rewards, or certain sets of rewards, and just put in new ones, does that work ?

    I'm understanding that slightly tweaking something existing to improve it is hard, I'm understanding that using current stuff into new crafting recipes is hard - and tbh, I often find that one confusing myself.

    What is the easiest way for you guys to get improved loot into the game, considering these are Artifacts, and should feel worthwhile to players.

    I did like one of the suggestions - collect X amount of say Mondain Legacy artifacts, hand them in, for something bigger? Like the old Tokuno system.



  • poppspopps Posts: 3,903
    edited March 2021
    Cookie said:
    keven2002 said:
    @ Kyronix - Are you saying it is easier / less work to simply create a new item? I'd assume the easiest of this would be via the treasures of / black market menu gumps?

    **After reading this it sounds like I'm being a smart@ $$ but it's a serious question. If it's easier to make a brand new item then we should be suggesting those type items instead of recipe type items.


    @ kyronix ,

    Give us the parameters of what is workable :)

    Franlky, at least personally, rather then seeing just patched up solutions with a better item here, and a better item there, I'd rather much prefer to wait, if this option does is a possible one, for the Developers to have more time at hand to work on conceiving and Designing a global overhaul of the Crafting system to bring it on par with Loot items and bring back Crafting to what once it was, in Ultima Online, a playable profession in Ultima Online on its own, and not just a Template that players would use to be self sufficient for the whatever crafting needs of their own "Main" Fighting templates...

    Bottom line is, I would be just happy to stay as things are now, no changes nor new items BUT, on the hope that there can be light at the end of the Tunnel for Crafting.... whereas the Developers would have the goal and intent of doing a global overhaul to Crafting as soon as they get the time to make this possible.
  • While I wouldn't object if Doom Artifacts (to use the same example the original poster used) were to be updated, I need to point out three things.

    1 - There already is a system were Doom Artifacts can be upgraded, using the standard artifacts plus various materials. So in a sense we already have at least part of what's being asked for.  The low hanging fruit, if that's what this is, already has been plucked, perhaps?

    2 - Aren't even the worst Doom artifacts worth turn-in points if nothing else?

    3 - There always have been items that few have used, either because they're just not that good or because they fill niche purposes. Here are some examples.

    --Back in the old days: A full suit of GM-made plate armor was something of a specialty suit, because the dexterity penalty made it questionable for a lot of players.

    --Still from the old days: GM weapons were usually seen as better than most low-end magic weapons (at least the type of magic weapons that added to damage only - some had other properties too).

    --From old but not as-old days: Was anyone ever thrilled to get a 120 Discordance Power Scroll? Quite possibly! But no one I know. Even Bards.

    --In more recent days: The Holy Knight's Breastplate was never, ever, all that good. Some people used it to great effect but it filled a niche for them. For a general audience, if you got that artifact in your pack, you were disappointed.

    --In even more recent days: I'm one of the few people I knew who considered the Helm of Vengeance to be worth a damn. Most people made fun of it. But it was never THE item of choice.

    Basically, every time we have a set of possible rewards, there always are some rewards that either are niche items or flat-out throwaways. Going back to the very start.
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,080
    edited March 2021
    @JohnKnighthawke - I agree with you and I don't think anyone is talking a full overhaul of something like Doom artifacts but rather just a few tweaks. That said, even viable items that were in high demand before (ie Magician Orny) have become irrelevant as loot has evolved over the past 10 years.

    My suggestions, as well as others, was in the spirit of giving those older items purpose. If the "recipe" idea is actually more entangled than we thought then I have no issue with a brand new item (like the 5 SSI eps...this was a great idea).

    The only thing I'd be opposed to is introducing new gear that has no use because if they are going to spend time introducing something I'd like it to be worthwhile. Example would be the black market whips; they were introduced as new items (a couple years ago when Rising Tide was running) but they aren't a viable item so why bother even creating it (Devs effort was largely wasted there to many people's opinions)?

    I think everyone understands the limited resources the Devs have so majority of people simply want to ensure all effort is going into something worthwhile. 
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,246

    True about Doom, I was just using an example.

    And re Crafting, of course I'm there for improvements to Crafting, but on the assumption that takes an entire publish, this thread was about quick wins.

    I was exploring that, I understand Kyronix's response that they are not quick wins, but I don't fully understand.

    Whilst I get the point that there will always be some systems left behind, we do have an extraordinary amount of content that could be updated - IF there were any quick wins there.

  • TheoTheo Posts: 167
    edited March 2021


    Basically, every time we have a set of possible rewards, there always are some rewards that either are niche items or flat-out throwaways. Going back to the very start.

    I would consider that a design flaw that should get corrected.  It would be the same as 'winning' a scratch off lottery ticket and the reward was a ball of lint.   
    Even the lowest rewards should have *some* value or they shouldn't be rewards.  Just remove them and drop something useful instead. You know what I mean?

    I'm not asking for every encounter to have the top end rewards but the game has progressed so much with loot inflation that it has killed old systems that no one does.  Are people really doing that silly Despise encounter to train up their pet and fight something with it?  Despise used to be a good place for new players to train. Not sure what it is now.  

    My point is - fix old things with less coding than adding new things.  I really think our dev time is being misspent.  These new vet rewards and new art and everything takes time.  Removing the Holy knights breastplate from the loot drops doesn't seem like much effort. 

    Fix the old to make it useful.  What is old is new again.   

    I would love to do some old content but all anyone ever does is the roof because its the best loot with the best rewards because it was the last thing added.  Somehow they found time to craft an entirely new encounter, system, 7 different rooms.  Not saying the roof isn't interesting - I just don't buy 'we don't have time' because that seems like a heck of alot more time than reviewing and fixing some loot items to make old systems useful again. 

    The event in ice dungeon shows you that people will do an old dungeon again for HOURS on end if the rewards are worth it.   The ONLY reason people went is updated rewards for effort.   And the rewards weren't even that great yet on every shard you'd find 10-20 people in there working. 
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 1,109Dev
    edited March 2021
    What I'm saying is using existing artifacts as ingredients in a crafting recipe requires making changes across a few different systems and moves beyond the scope of "just updating numbers in a table".  When we spent the first part of last year updating our ability to add new rewards dynamically it allows us to create equipment with properties and deliver those via the dynamic reward events tools we have. 

    You also have to consider the back and forth of "tweaking" something.  There's going to be opinions that are all over the place and zeroing in on any actionable feedback proves quite challenging.  Mostly it ends up in players becoming frustrated that we won't deliver equipment that pushes the boundaries further than we want.  Then we get accused of "not playing the game" because, obviously, if we did, we would definitely put that particular piece of equipment in.  What is often lost is we have to look beyond the simple desires of the player and consider a host of other factors that are often overlooked.
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 1,109Dev
    "for the Developers to have more time at hand to work on conceiving and Designing a global overhaul of the Crafting system to bring it on par with Loot items and bring back Crafting to what once it was, in Ultima Online, a playable profession in Ultima Online on its own, and not just a Template that players would use to be self sufficient for the whatever crafting needs of their own "Main" Fighting templates..."

    @keven2002 doing so would require the magnitude of change that we saw from pre to post-AoS.  A game wide audit, deletion, and refactoring of loot that would have to be applied without exception to bring everything on par.  I have little expectation enough consensus could be built to make such a radical change in the elder game.

    Now if we had a blank canvass like a fresh shard we could....oh wait! We will!  One of the primary goals of New Legacy will allow us the blank canvass that is required to accomplish a much more balanced relationship between looted and crafted gear.
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 1,109Dev
    edited March 2021
    "My point is - fix old things with less coding than adding new things.  I really think our dev time is being misspent."

    @Theo - this is a false assumption.  Fixing old things, almost always, requires more effort than adding new things.  
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,903
    edited March 2021
    Kyronix said:

    Now if we had a blank canvass like a fresh shard we could....oh wait! We will!  One of the primary goals of New Legacy will allow us the blank canvass that is required to accomplish a much more balanced relationship between looted and crafted gear.
    Well, I guess that as that Paragraph hints, if such "more balanced relationship between looted and crafted gear" will actually be delivered as my hopes are, this will mean me playing the New Legacy server and no longer look behind....

    I am crossing fingers.......
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,080
    edited March 2021
    Kyronix said:
    Then we get accused of "not playing the game" because, obviously, if we did, we would definitely put that particular piece of equipment in.  What is often lost is we have to look beyond the simple desires of the player and consider a host of other factors that are often overlooked.
    @Kyronix bringing the FIRE!!! Thanks for the thorough & candid response! 

    I wasn't really pushing for a crafting overhaul (at least not in this thread or much anywhere recently).  I've kind of thought the same thing (which you confirmed) that doing so would require massive time and massive buy in for the majority (which we can't even agree on VDay gifts so this chance is slim to none).

    I was just thinking of how to leverage older items to make new ones (partly to clean up older items too), but I can see your point about things need to be updated across a few places this way so it's more work than we would think. I get it.

    As I said, I'm completely fine with brand new items being made. My only hope though is that these new items (however they are delivered) are more like the rewards from the Deceit arc (very exciting and usable rewards) as opposed to from Ice (not much reason to grind more than needed to get 1 of each item).

    Thanks again.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,246

    Brilliant @Kyronix - loved it, got it :)

    Ok - give us lots of Dynamic events then please ! I'm up for them, I do enjoy them.

    And yes, I do completely get your logic re New Legacy - I often cannot see any other way myself, and I completely get all the advantages it will give you.

    Thanks very much for a very cool response.

  • PawainPawain Posts: 8,971
    edited March 2021
    Kyronix said:
    "My point is - fix old things with less coding than adding new things.  I really think our dev time is being misspent."

    @ Theo - this is a false assumption.  Fixing old things, almost always, requires more effort than adding new things.  
    @Kyronix
     Thats why you could make a potion we get from the upcoming events that adds a property to a looted or crafted weapon. Not one we have to click and use.

    One potion per weapon.
    Similar to Bane, A better virtue bane one, swarm, some other ones that you make up.
    Thors Hammer Potion could have a chain lightning every 20 hits RNG.
    One with the Glenda hit but not every time.
    Make them UO lore related if you want. Lolos song could do temporary discord every # of hits RNG.

    Not like meteor breath, that does way too little damage and too long between uses.
    Make it only work against Mobs or Reds if you want. Not against players so the Fel community does not complain.  They have splinter. And they dont like balance or change.

    Allow us to make our weapons better.  Most PvM weapons are crafted. We would craft many more if we could add a different property and you made many properties.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • The_Higgs_1The_Higgs_1 Posts: 420
    How hard would it be to add a vendor type guy to doom? (kinda like outside tram despise)  Take all the old items and put them on there and use dark father blood as the payment for getting them.  Could even put the new ones on there and just make them cost alot more. (i.e. Blade of insanity 50 blood,  halo 2000 blood)  @Kyronix
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 1,109Dev
    @The_Higgs_1 we would have to build in some functionality for the vendor to accept payment from other than artifacts, definitely possible and something I've thought about doing.

    @Pawain - potionized imbuing is something we've talked about, it gets messy when you start talking about validations but it's worth more discussion I think.
  • JepethJepeth Posts: 509
    Kyronix said:
    @ The_Higgs_1 we would have to build in some functionality for the vendor to accept payment from other than artifacts, definitely possible and something I've thought about doing.

    This is a fun idea. Could do this at the different types of dungeons in all the facets and have local flavor for each. Lore items as rewards at the anti-virtue dungeons, undead themed items at Doom, etc etc.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 167
    @Kyronix Thanks for the responses. This is the type of communication we need is the explanation behind some of the decisions and the why. It makes us feel more comfortable in terms of whats being done.  

    In terms of the mods on equipment - i'd love something whereby you could swap one mod for another mod of equal intensity - so the piece gets no more weight - but an undesirable mod for a desired mod.  Like a weapon having 80 luck is not helpful but swapping for say 30% hit lower def makes it  more useful.   Especially jewels - too many of these jewels spawn without SSI which is the mod everyone is after for any fighting jewel.  Too often you get like SDI on a fighting piece and you want SSI instead.  A modification item to remove the undesired to add a desired at the same intensity level would make alot of loot alot better and probably something people would pay for. Don't make it crazy - like 100 soverings. 

  • SethSeth Posts: 2,904
    edited March 2021
    Kyronix said:
    "My point is - fix old things with less coding than adding new things.  I really think our dev time is being misspent."

    @ Theo - this is a false assumption.  Fixing old things, almost always, requires more effort than adding new things.  
    I am sticking with original intent of this topic, and considering
    1) the least Dev effort
    2) to make existing rewards useful
    3) without complicating existing system (overpowering, bugs, coding, etc) or risk overlooking other "unforeseen factors"...

    So I think its best to create simple menu for us to exchange useless artifacts for new rewards?

    I am thinking of an advanced cleanup program with better rewards. So the focus is just to identify new reward items (like each event) except that this is permanent.

    Some items that come to mind are those from Blackthorn, e.g. Lieutenant Sash, etc that are no longer available. Or some collectable decors, shard bound Bane dragon, etc. Let's not be afraid to bring back one or two highly desirable items - maybe change the rewards each year.

    Even one good reward can help to clear up 99% of the junks in the game... why not? Also have different points for artifacts from different sources, e.g. shadowguard arties should worth more points than those arties from classic dungeon.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,903
    edited March 2021
    Kyronix said:
    @ The_Higgs_1 we would have to build in some functionality for the vendor to accept payment from other than artifacts, definitely possible and something I've thought about doing.

    @ Pawain - potionized imbuing is something we've talked about, it gets messy when you start talking about validations but it's worth more discussion I think.
    @Kyronix ;

    One thing that I would like to see more on the old, existing Shards, is the spawn of items as Loot on minor Monsters, particularly jewels, whereas they spawn with less properties (that is, imbuable), like 2 or 3, but with 2 maxed out and chances for a third overcapped....

    Why this ?

    Because, so far, killing lower Monsters is a useless and unproductive activity, usually only players who are training up skills hunt them...

    If, instead, these Lower Monsters were to be able to spawn items with only a couple of properties or 3 at most BUT, with them maxed out and even one overcapped, they would be, where the properties where to match among them, great items for imbuing purposes to save up on resources...

    For example, let's take a ring or bracelet.... this change, in my view, should make it possible to see as Loot on minor Monsters, more and more rings and bracelets be able to spawn with Faster Casting 1 and Faster Cast Recovery 3 (would save up 20 Essences to the imbuer...) with a chance to see one of these 2 even overcapped (i.e. FC 2 or FCR 4...) or, if not with either FC or FCR overcapped, with a 3rd property like for example Spell Damage Increase maxed out as well or with a chance to come overcapped at 18 ......

    Bottom line is, rather then having always items showing up as Loot that have too many properties, often unmatched, and which cannot be imbued, make it possible for items to spawn on Lesser Monsters, thus giving to new and returning players an opportunity for good sellers, that can be imbued and which would save up in imbuing mats because with some properties on them already maxed out or, perhaps, with 1 even overcapped...

    The logic being, "less" properties on the item but those few, maxed out and with a chance for one even overcapped and, maintaining the item as imbuable....

    What do you think ?
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,904
    popps said:
    Kyronix said:
    @ The_Higgs_1 we would have to build in some functionality for the vendor to accept payment from other than artifacts, definitely possible and something I've thought about doing.

    @ Pawain - potionized imbuing is something we've talked about, it gets messy when you start talking about validations but it's worth more discussion I think.
    @ Kyronix 

    One thing that I would like to see more on the old, existing Shards, is the spawn of items as Loot on minor Monsters, particularly jewels, whereas they spawn with less properties (that is, imbuable), like 2 or 3, but with 2 maxed out and chances for a third overcapped....

    Why this ?

    Because, so far, killing lower Monsters is a useless and unproductive activity, usually only players who are training up skills hunt them...

    If, instead, these Lower Monsters were to be able to spawn items with only a couple of properties or 3 at most BUT, with them maxed out and even one overcapped, they would be, where the properties where to match among them, great items for imbuing purposes to save up on resources...

    For example, let's take a ring or bracelet.... this change, in my view, should make it possible to see as Loot on minor Monsters, more and more rings and bracelets be able to spawn with Faster Casting 1 and Faster Cast Recovery 3 (would save up 20 Essences to the imbuer...) with a chance to see one of these 2 even overcapped (i.e. FC 2 or FCR 4...) or, if not with either FC or FCR overcapped, with a 3rd property like for example Spell Damage Increase maxed out as well or with a chance to come overcapped at 18 ......

    Bottom line is, rather then having always items showing up as Loot that have too many properties, often unmatched, and which cannot be imbued, make it possible for items to spawn on Lesser Monsters, thus giving to new and returning players an opportunity for good sellers, that can be imbued and which would save up in imbuing mats because with some properties on them already maxed out or, perhaps, with 1 even overcapped...

    The logic being, "less" properties on the item but those few, maxed out and with a chance for one even overcapped and, maintaining the item as imbuable....

    What do you think ?

    Lower level monsters are always not rewarding in any game.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,080
    @popps - What you are asking for already exists. That is where the 10SSI / 35Dmg Inc type jewels come from. You have to find the mob and the luck sweet spot (aka actually play the game).

    @Seth - I like your idea about making a type of "artifact" cleanup idea. I think depending on the dungeon drop the ratio of points would need to reflect accordingly (might need to be on a dungeon by dungeon basis). For example, Doom drops are much harder (take longer) to get than the dungeon drops of like armor of justice etc. I think a "points system" (like cleanup points) becomes too convoluted, so I'd say keep it at 1 point per turn in but the rewards are just 5-10 points max. I'm just not sure how low hanging this would be.

    @Kyronix - Possible idea for low hanging which might be more along the lines you are thinking for game balance. Currently as a Doom drop there is a chance at getting a "randomly generated “Prized” magic item that is at least a Lesser Artifact, with no additional negative properties". Could we turn that into simply a Legendary Artifact? I think we could possibly build on this too as a randomized reward drop since clean legendary artifacts can already be looted present day AND there is still some randomness to what people get (you might get a clean legendary crook or maybe that piece of bone armor that improves your suit).
  • DrakelordDrakelord Posts: 1,730
    popps said:
    I would like the recipes though, to be obtainable in ways "other" then having to fight.... it makes no sense to me that a Crafter needs to be subject to a Fighter in order to get the recipes that he/she needs to use to make a living in UO.... this only helps or mostly helps those players who have both a crafter and a fighter thus being self sufficient...
    Tell me about it.  On Siege if you have a crafter that needs such recipes you have to have another account to make a fighter or hope you got good friends that can help out.  The RNG also hate you when it come to such drops, I can go weeks if not months before I see a recipe I do not have.
    Remove Trap = Bad News
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    Treasure Hunters
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  • poppspopps Posts: 3,903
    keven2002 said:
    @ popps - What you are asking for already exists. That is where the 10SSI / 35Dmg Inc type jewels come from. You have to find the mob and the luck sweet spot (aka actually play the game).

    The odds are, though, way too low to get anything that could actually be imbuable and usable...

    When was the last time that someone, for example, remembers getting a Ring or Bracelet with only FC1 and FCR 3 or maybe one of this properties overcapped (FC 2 OR FCR 4) ?

    Or maybe one with FC1 FCR3 and SDI 18 ?

    It is way too difficult... I think that such items should be more likely to spawn on Lower level MoBs.... would be good for new players and good for all players imbuing and crafting, me thinks...
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,080
    Once again you are being told that it's possible and working fine and you choose not to accept the answer and post again about it. I've gotten plenty of "usable" items from lower level mobs such as 1/3 + 18SDI from things like a lich. It depends on luck + RNG. 

    Accept the facts or don't but stop asking Devs to give attention in a place where it isn't needed just because you don't feel like figuring it out. Aka stop trolling and actually play the game.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,903
    edited March 2021
    keven2002 said:
    Once again you are being told that it's possible and working fine and you choose not to accept the answer and post again about it. I've gotten plenty of "usable" items from lower level mobs such as 1/3 + 18SDI from things like a lich. It depends on luck + RNG. 

    Accept the facts or don't but stop asking Devs to give attention in a place where it isn't needed just because you don't feel like figuring it out. Aka stop trolling and actually play the game.
    How is it working "fine" if the odds to get any such piece are far from being reasonable ?

    The point of having these items to spawn, as I see it, is to permit to players to use them and save up on imbuing materials.

    Yet, if the time to get these items is immensely larger as the time that one would need to just go and farm for the imbuing materials, it makes it pointless that these items "can" spawn...

    They need to be able to spawn "and" do it with enough likeliness to make it a valid alternative as to merely farm for imbuing materials, me thinks....
  • MargeMarge Posts: 720
    Popps, please stop trying to trademark a catchphrase.
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