The deeply flawed state of the game. @Devs

I will be brief.

Templates that use 800+ skillpoints should not exist. No template should be without weakness. Both PVP and PVM are deeply flawed right now, to the point where the game isnt fun to play.

 In addition, the egregious inequality between the two clients is disgusting and I shouldnt be at a disadvantage in PVP OR PVM for choosing the classic client.

 My next problem is the gross inequality between the races in game. Why can gargoyles not be better than humans or elves at ANYTHING? Inferior luck, inferior spell damage, inferior damage reduction, inferior racial bonuses,skill increase items available,  AND I have to alter items permanently, which permanently decreases their value because gargoyles suck at everything.

My thought process the other night.
 Hmm I think im going to make a necromage gargoyle! That sounds fun! Wait.. I cant fit the same spell damage.. ok pvp gargoyle! Wait.. I cant fit enough skillpoints for parry.. Wait.. Ok gargoyles suck Ill make a human necromage, Wait.. If he has parry he cant fit meditation.. and I need more stats.. Ok Ill make an elf necromage.. Wait.. but if I make him a mystic he gets to have focus and then I wont need med! Ok so elf mystic parry with 55lmc! OH WAIT.. I tried to do something fun and ended up with the EXACT SAME TEMPLATE AS EVERYONE ELSE. GIVE OR TAKE EVASION [If you can find the jewels.]

This is the state of the game. There are only a handful of ways to build correctly/efficiently and a LOT of ways to be wrong. This is not the Ultima Online I want for the future.

Any chance we can take a break from our regularly scheduled power creep to make the game not suck?


On second thought, this wont be brief. It would be a little lame to critique the state of the game without proposing solutions.

1. Hard cap skill increase from items at +30-45 [This fixes nearly all hybrid template problems]
2. Fix the faster casting town buff exploit and ban all intentional abusers.
3. Fix the artwork in the enhanced client so you can shut down the classic client. [Nobody cares about the inferior client's UI, its that my char looks like shit in that client.]
4. Give gargoyles ONE GOOD RACIAL ABILITY and the ability to add luck with enhancement to earrings and necklaces. One decent modern gargoyle artifact wouldnt hurt.
5. Invest resources into aggressively pursuing players that use illegal 3rd party programs to automate their gameplay in pvp.
6. Have a pass at all of the inferior templates [Like bards, tamers, ect.] and give them a reason to be played. My sampire out performs all of these classes at almost everything in the game. That is dumb.

Please consult me before making major balance changes so I dont have to fix the game again.

Mic drop.

You are welcome Ultima Online.


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Comments

  • SmootSmoot Posts: 318
    i love gargs.  yeah not great for everything but have there place.  no need for mount (yes this is also drawback, but was especially good before pet trained cus)  the bonus 5 hci is nice, dont have to imbue balanced, and overall much cheaper to make a character in terms of gear.  anyway thats why i love gargs and use them for certain characters.  id say overall gargs are better than elves, but more template specific in terms of benefits compared to humans.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    Gargoyles make strong throwers, both PvP and PvM
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • NikardNikard Posts: 164
    @Smoot Better than elves at what?

    @Mervyn Strong relative to what?

    Im not saying I dont like gargoyles, im saying they are inferior to overpowered classes and therefor need love.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    They deal real hard damage and have 50hci. 
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • SummonedSummoned Posts: 35
    It's amazing to me how a generation that grew up on South Park and Family Guy can cry so much.
  • crunchnastycrunchnasty Posts: 241
    @Bleak @Kyronix @Mesanna - Can you address this post with any specificity?
  • NikardNikard Posts: 164
    edited March 2019
    @Mervyn Last I checked their hci doesnt go above cap.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    last i checked, it does
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • NikardNikard Posts: 164
    edited March 2019


    Cameo 10%
    Shantys 10%
    Weapon 20% [Hunting Spear]
    Ring 13%

    If a gargoyle can have 50% Hci, test center can't math.
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 971Dev
    I don't have an opportunity to go into a great degree of detail right now other than to say that that any argument that starts with "deeply flawed" and then goes on to extol its arguments (some of which are terribly short sighted and misinformed) as being the sole solution to our "many problems" makes me wonder how we've survived for more than two decades.  Alas, here we are.

    That being said we look forward to a future conversation on how we can best balance a variety of aspects in the game world with regard to power creep and keeping the content engaging.

    Thanks for the feedback!
  • NikardNikard Posts: 164
    @Kyronix Not an argument, a dialog. I came up with those suggestions in about a minute to get the ball rolling. I want to pvm without feeling forced onto a sampire, and pvp without being forced to use parry and do both without being forced to use the enhanced client. I would be willing to start with what you consider "short sighted," "misinformed," about what Ive said?

    I know im not "forced" to do anything, but I do lose a significant edge by not using advantages afforded by superior classes.

    Is this our future? Parry online? 900 Skillpoint chars? If it remains this way can I ask for like.. a little stronger jewels? I just want to be able to get a little ninjitsu on my necro tamer evasion mage.
  • hunter11hunter11 Posts: 223
    why would you want to put a cap on skill increase? this creates weakness in the template ive fought many high skill templates and they're a lot weaker than you think they sacrifice so much in stats such as hci dci to make these templates plus it allows for my diversity you could make those gargoyle temps you want just need the right jewels no one said it would be easy with farming down and overall population down those items arent as available as they once were but to drop total skill points down youd lose any and all diversity in this game everyone pvping would play 3-4 templates 
  • NikardNikard Posts: 164
    @hunter11 Respectfully I disagree. MOST of the highest skillpoint suits run parry, which would otherwise not be possible. The extra skillpoints are used to create templates that have no weakness. No weakness is not good for game health.
  • LearnMeLearnMe Posts: 43
    First you complain about templates having too many skill points, then two paragraphs later complain that you can't fit meditation on your parry mage.  (in a game where a VAST majority of pvpers have refined suits and can't use meditation anyway).  In an era where players get insane stat increase, 20+ mana regen on suits easily, and 55lmc you picked a poor example to use.  

    Gargoyles make awesome dismounters, can throw down colossus' at spawns for raiding or defense without being on foot, can fly around with 5 slot pets other than that... sounds like a bonus.

    If you're basing your pvp suggestions on the principle that you enjoy sneaking off spawns and sitting in para fields for hours, then I suppose you'd see a lot of mystics and believe everyone plays the same template.  My character roster I use open field and at spawns:

    Archer ninja mage, nox necro mage, mystic parry mage, evasion necro, and a pure evasion dexxer.  Have played each of them at least once in the past week.  

    Why do pvm templates need more buffs?  Do people need more options to solo all the endgame content with in an MMO?  Every character should have it's role for the group imo.  

    Focus on what needs an adjustment - Evasion.
  • NikardNikard Posts: 164
    @LearnMe ;If you read the full comment, it was a rapid sample thought process of finding the optimal toon, which was a far cry from what was intended, a "fun" one.

    The 5 slot pet comes with the sacrifice of not being able to quickly remount, which is the entire point. Current templates do not make tradeoffs, they just get everything.

    My pvp suggestions come from being a smart player. 3 of the 5 templates you listed have massive skill increases for no other reason than additional defense, on immensely damage heavy chars. I think you missed the point so ill say it real slow for you. 

    There should be a tradeoff in power vs defense. A game that allows the best offense to also have the best defense is broken. Should. Not. Exist.

    Since you also couldnt read the pvm spot. Ill say this part very clearly too.

    That was about equality between clients and races and classes.

    Dont bring your attitude to my post if you cant back it up with brainpower.
  • LynkLynk Posts: 178
    I was going to argue with you and tell you youre wrong, but kyronix already destroyed you.  

    Evade is the only thing thats OP.  Needs toned down.  Coming from someone who plays evade on most of my chars.
  • LearnMeLearnMe Posts: 43
    5 pet slot trade off is not being able to remount quickly..? A gargoyle can continue flying, so there is no "remount." 

    No trade offs?  The necro evader has 200 skill points invested purely for corpse and omen.  You could argue pain spike is good for the cast timer, but I end up being a mage with lessened sdi so that I can corpse for the group (not a huge advantage against refinements.)

    The necro nox toon needs 0 skill increase.  Easily destroyed by dexxers.

    The archer mage needs 0 skill increase.  Easily destroyed by dexxers, but a fun glass cannon.

    A pure evade melee toon needs...0 skill increase?  No ranged damage, pretty big trade off.

    What templates have I seen in just the past week of pvp?  Weave mages, 4/6 chiv toons, mystic macers, bok mages, GARGOYLE weaving throwers, chiv throwers, stealth dpers, weaving archers, nox archers, evasion ninja mages, mystic parry mages, healing mages, tactics mages, plain archers, then throw in the extra templates I run that I listed above.  So 15+ variations of templates I can recall off the top of my head running around yew gate and spawns in the past week.  

    Maybe define what qualifies as best offense? Best defense?  Best defense would be a 4/6 chiv evader.  Not going to get a ton of burst damage on that.  Best offense would be...? splinter? Having a combination of mystic and mage on one toon?  I think if you're going to call the game deeply flawed, then the community reading what you have to say shouldn't have to play a guessing game to figure out what you're talking about.
  • LearnMeLearnMe Posts: 43
    And I could care less about pvm.  It bores me.  Weird to complain about equality between races and classes, then say everything should have weaknesses (aka your tamer shouldn't excel at everything your samphire does) and ignore every point made about gargoyles having uses.
  • NikardNikard Posts: 164
    edited March 2019


    @LearnMe Gargoyles have a cast time for remount after being dismounted.

    Necromancers have 16 spells, your knowledge may be limited, but players of greater quality will take advantage of the others.  And if you were not aware, omen by itself increases spell damage by 25%.

    Im not going to sit here and pick you apart unless you can make a constructive comment towards positive change, which you have yet to do. Your future comments will be ignored unless you become useful in discussion.

    "Weird to complain about equality between races and classes then say everything should have weaknesses" - No

    I said races should have equality and classes should have weaknesses. There is a difference, educate yourself.

    I have ignored nothing, and dispatched you with a stinging backhand.

    PS There are players that enjoy all of the aspects of the game. Some dont like to buy gold from 3rd party sites, some dont like to automate their gameplay, some enjoy the game for more than collecting powerscrolls.

    This thread is getting pretty derailed by some toxic players so Im probably going to move on if nothing constructive is going to happen.
  • LearnMeLearnMe Posts: 43
    Nikard said:

    That was about equality between clients and races and classes.



    This is exactly what you said and quoted from your above post.  I'm going to force you to provide something substantiating when suggesting ridiculous ideas like a +30 skill point increase cap.  Don't like the skill increase? Run a discorder.  
    Nikard said:

    Necromancers have 16 spells, your knowledge may be limited, but players of greater quality will take advantage of the others.  And if you were not aware, omen by itself increases spell damage by 25%.


    Fully aware what necromancers have at their disposal.  An arsenal of long cast time spells that are all cleared every 30 seconds via apple, cleansing winds, or nonstop 4/6 chiv remove curses that take almost no mana.  Again, you suggest all offense and defense with no disadvantage.  If you've ever played a necromancer you'd understand it is mainly debuffs.  Useful offense? Three spells. 

    Thanks for being unable to refute anything I've posted though.  I guess the gargoyle thing was close?  If you decide not to run ninjitsu, being able to control 5 slot pets is still an advantage, particularly in pvm.

    Again, when players like yourself who do not pvp, spend 90% of your time trolling pvpers and the other 10% dying with numbers I will call you on your nonsense.  

    lol at programs that cast for people.  There really needs to be some vetting process for who we take implementation ideas from.
  • SlissSliss Posts: 275
    Nikard said:
    6. Have a pass at all of the inferior templates [Like bards, tamers, ect.] and give them a reason to be played. My sampire out performs all of these classes at almost everything in the game. That is dumb.

    They spent 2 years since the pet revamp nerfing the tamers, and now you want them to be boosted again?! Not gonna happen :D
  • The_Higgs_1The_Higgs_1 Posts: 408
    I think its funny how evasion is all of a sudden the main issue according to these people.  Until 840 skill increase templates no one said evasion was broken.   Before if you wanted to run a Bokuto mage you had to choose between resist or parry, now you get to have both.   The skill not having a cap is definitely the issue.   If you think otherwise your an idiot.   Still waiting to see if they do put a nerf on parry or not, that conversation seems to have disappeared.   Right now pvp is just run around for 5-10 minutes, attempt a dump, then run around again for ten minutes.  That is not fun pvp, its dumb as hell.   3rd party programs also needs addressed, I still don't understand why it hasn't been addressed.   The word collusion comes to mind.   

    Pvm could be upgraded fairly easily just by adding leechs to spellbooks to give them the same power as sampires.   Only other thing as far as pvp goes is make a break point for 4/6 when combined with certain skills like bushido.  4/6 plus bushido shouldn't exist.
  • LynkLynk Posts: 178
    edited March 2019


    Gargoyles have the longest ranged dismount weapon available in the game.  Gargoyles are the only race that can cast a rising collosus while moving at mounted speed.  Gargoyles have the only 1 handed weapon that comes with disarm and armor ignore.  Gargoyles have the longest AI and mortal ranged weapon.  Gargoyles have an inherent 5 HCI bonus that when coupled with town bonuses makes it incredibly easy to get max hit chance.

    Elves have increased mana and when coupled with refined suits 80 energy resist basically negates holy fist and energy bolt.

    Humans have natural regens, can carry more, and JOAT for hiding, weaving buffs, and the ability to use low level magery scrolls with no skill investment.

    Each has perks.  I choose my race depending on the template.

    +Skill cap would completely remove the amazing template diversity that exists in PvP today.  My guild alone has 8 active players.  Among those players the primary templates played are : mystic bushido dexer, necro bushido mage, fencer bushido tactics mage, parry wrestle mystic, bushido mage wep ninja mage, chiv/weave/thrower.  The two other players that are on frequently are a bushido/weaver mage and a disarm archer.

    That is 8 people with similar play styles all playing different templates.  


  • LynkLynk Posts: 178
    I think its funny how evasion is all of a sudden the main issue according to these people.  Until 840 skill increase templates no one said evasion was broken.   Before if you wanted to run a Bokuto mage you had to choose between resist or parry, now you get to have both.   The skill not having a cap is definitely the issue.   If you think otherwise your an idiot.   Still waiting to see if they do put a nerf on parry or not, that conversation seems to have disappeared.   Right now pvp is just run around for 5-10 minutes, attempt a dump, then run around again for ten minutes.  That is not fun pvp, its dumb as hell.   3rd party programs also needs addressed, I still don't understand why it hasn't been addressed.   The word collusion comes to mind.   

    Pvm could be upgraded fairly easily just by adding leechs to spellbooks to give them the same power as sampires.   Only other thing as far as pvp goes is make a break point for 4/6 when combined with certain skills like bushido.  4/6 plus bushido shouldn't exist.
    A bokuto mage requires 760 skill points.  Thats +40 points.  Is that a lot of + skill? No it isn't. 

    Higgs, we crushed you on chessy last night with 4 people vs your 6 and we were all on 2012 reforged/imbued suits without a single evader.  The reason you lose is lack of ability and coordination. 

    Parry is OP?  You play a parry wrestle mystic (Tigris) on ATL and you die all the time.  Exactly how OP is it again?  The only thing that is OP is evasion.  

    Programs?  The only programs that exist that impact PvP in any way is the ability to replicate features that exist within EC.  There is nothing that any program does that EC can't do natively. 

    Your understanding of how PvP takes place is incredibly flawed.  You guys don't even PvP.  We had to scout chesapeake just to find you guys hiding.  Do you think chaining spawns on a dead server is PvP? 

    It isn't attempt a dump and run for 10 minutes.  Most fights last under 5 minutes, after that the losing team has lost 30% of their force and is trying to escape.  
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    edited March 2019
    Publish 65 reads: 
    • Gargoyles receive a 5% bonus to hit that stacks with HCI and skill bonus.
    • Gargoyle’s hit chance cap has been increased to 50%.
    But I’m being told by my people it got changed after to not stack but I can’t find what publish.

    i found this with google:
    https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/technical/previous-publishes/2010-2/publish-65/

    This was under the section “deadly aim” but when you put that search term into uo wiki’s search it says no results found..
    confirmation uo wiki search is broken
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • The_Higgs_1The_Higgs_1 Posts: 408
    Lynk said:
    I think its funny how evasion is all of a sudden the main issue according to these people.  Until 840 skill increase templates no one said evasion was broken.   Before if you wanted to run a Bokuto mage you had to choose between resist or parry, now you get to have both.   The skill not having a cap is definitely the issue.   If you think otherwise your an idiot.   Still waiting to see if they do put a nerf on parry or not, that conversation seems to have disappeared.   Right now pvp is just run around for 5-10 minutes, attempt a dump, then run around again for ten minutes.  That is not fun pvp, its dumb as hell.   3rd party programs also needs addressed, I still don't understand why it hasn't been addressed.   The word collusion comes to mind.   

    Pvm could be upgraded fairly easily just by adding leechs to spellbooks to give them the same power as sampires.   Only other thing as far as pvp goes is make a break point for 4/6 when combined with certain skills like bushido.  4/6 plus bushido shouldn't exist.
    A bokuto mage requires 760 skill points.  Thats +40 points.  Is that a lot of + skill? No it isn't. 

    Higgs, we crushed you on chessy last night with 4 people vs your 6 and we were all on 2012 reforged/imbued suits without a single evader.  The reason you lose is lack of ability and coordination. 

    Parry is OP?  You play a parry wrestle mystic (Tigris) on ATL and you die all the time.  Exactly how OP is it again?  The only thing that is OP is evasion.  

    Programs?  The only programs that exist that impact PvP in any way is the ability to replicate features that exist within EC.  There is nothing that any program does that EC can't do natively. 

    Your understanding of how PvP takes place is incredibly flawed.  You guys don't even PvP.  We had to scout chesapeake just to find you guys hiding.  Do you think chaining spawns on a dead server is PvP? 

    It isn't attempt a dump and run for 10 minutes.  Most fights last under 5 minutes, after that the losing team has lost 30% of their force and is trying to escape.  
    LOLOL.  Youd didn't crush anyone and stop taking personal swipes with your lies.   My char is a necro parry mage and he has died less then five times since I made him and I have killed over 400 people, Its OP as hell.   LOL I like how you use EC and a reason to cheat and use 3rd party programs.  If EC was that OP in pvp everyone would be using EC, another lie.   We pvp more then just you scrubs, you wouldn't know cause only fight at yew gayte.   All I ever see is you running from people no matter how many you have, then you try to snyc someone and if it fails we chase you for at least ten more minutes before you try again.   Your boring to pvp against that's why your a yew gater.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    Ah I found it publish 81:

    Misc Changes:

    • The Gargoyle race hit chance increase cap has been reduced from 50 to 45.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • MariahMariah Posts: 2,149Moderator
    Some personal attacks have been edited out of a number of posts.
  • MervynMervyn Posts: 2,208
    edited March 2019
    With regards to number 6. I propose that Vampiric embrace should require Spirit Speak, all other necro spells require Spirit speak to be effective.

    They should scale the life leech effect determined on the spirit speak skill, much like the mana leech effect in wraith form is determined by spirit speak.

    I was hoping someone else would say this at some point. Because due to fear of negative feedback, the devs only go ahead with my suggestions if they have exhausted all other alternatives.
    I tell you the truth, tis better to do 10 damage on the right target than 100 damage on the wrong target.

    Breaking in the young since 2002


  • NikardNikard Posts: 164
    @Mervyn Finally a constructive comment! Solid idea. If the life drain scaled with skill the same way mana drain does in wraith form it would be a step in the right direction!
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