Legacy Nightmare

Mordeed · October 7

Hi, Im in the process of training up an old nightmare Ive had since ??? along time ago Ive got to the last training stage but ended up with alot of points left over that Im unsure what to do with. so far he is

Hit Points 610
Stamina 150
Mana 496
Strengh 700
Dex 150
Int 370
Resists Capped
Hit Point Reg 20
Stamina Reg 5
Mana Reg 30
Base Damage 24-33
Chiv
Armour Ignore
All skills 120 ( in planner, I dont have any of the scrolls yet : (

The planner says Ive 152 points left after Ive done the 120s, so whats the best thing to put those into please ?

Urge · October 7

If you didn't already know, you'll lose magery if you chose chiv. Only 1 magic class allowed.

If you knew and are happy with it, i'd split the difference between HP/Mana/Int

Pawain · October 7

Yes you should put Chiv on a PP NM. You can make a magery one out of a current two slot NM.

Equines and dragons are very squishy. I put 10 Stamina regen on them.

Rest is fine. Mana will be 0 in a short time no matter how high it starts. Pets run on Mana regen.

Urge · October 7

I was under the assumption that int played a large part of mana regin?

Tbh I'm not a power gamer so I don't really notice a huge difference in adding anything but AI.

Pawain · October 7

Urge said:

I was under the assumption that int played a large part of mana regin?

Tbh I'm not a power gamer so I don't really notice a huge difference in adding anything but AI.

Int is good at 370, but it does not increase MR enough to put it to more, Str more imp.

If Int was the key, we would all have serpentine dragons.

KroDuK · October 8

Mordeed said:

The planner says Ive 152 points left after Ive done the 120s, so whats the best thing to put those into please ?

Since u going with AI/chiv, it make sense to go Str.

Use this tool for the sweet spot for strenght (consider bless and curse.. i'd ignore remove curse)
https://www.uo-cah.com/pet-damage-calculator

BUT.. consider this (the 40 vs 48 swings from 149stam to 150 active pool):

Image: https://forum.uo.com/uploads/editor/fh/45cnodccm4tb.png

PS: take what i'm saying with a grain of salt.. I mess around with that only ~3weeks. I mostly only experience CU tank and Rune Beetle high INT + magery.. to me the HP regen on pets.. except for something like a CU (that support his healing) I was not a big fan of HP regen.. it seems very minimal, on paper, in the middle of the heat when it's by itself (no heal, no leech ability, no mastery nor bard support)
I was like.. if I can't keep my pet alive and need a minimal point of regen to keep it alive.. I deserve to lose my pet. Or i'd pick something optimize to tank full HPR; a CU or something that leeches life.

Image: https://forum.uo.com/uploads/editor/gc/nd19hopxt9kl.png

But read this.. it depend how you playing your Tamer with that NM..
https://www.uo-cah.com/foundations/attributes/hpr
You could get way more than 20 HP regen.. to me 20 HP regen by itself equal; 1 bandage + one in vas mani every minute. meh.

You want that stam regen with AI, VERY important, plus i'd overcap that 150 stam cuz of curse. Your NM won't bless itself (no more magery), also not sure if u going to keep it bless (if you're a mage)

Knowing u don't have the PS, if u have extra point; just keep them.. if you are not sure, do not invest/waste any points.. you have more than enough time to plan your pet. (u still need those PS) Do not waste your legacy pet, cuz you are learning.. take it cool, this is a legacy pet, do not rush it.

Stamina; with AI, very important to keep that SwingSpeedIncrease up.

You should figure out what u want yourself.. depending on you, how are you gonna use that NM or play it, with whom.. you already have the STR tool.. just lore your pet while it fight and gage his mana and use this: https://www.uo-cah.com/pet-mana-regen-calculator?int=370&mr=30&med=100&focus=100&mana=496&manacalcsubmit=calculate

Do not forget to consider everything.. like divinum furis.
You do you, just take your time with that legacy and do your own science for the remaining point use animal lore and gage stuff like stamina also.. if u really need it, maybe 120 focus is enough.. I doubt it's enough, but idk.. each heavy hit he receives he loses stamina and u want that 150 stam

Edit: once again take what I experience with a grain of salt I was not building for PvE hero plus I only did science ~3weeks.. minimal testing before BS kill my motivation to play after I experience my first UO heretic botvent. (bad bribe for actual players, killing the game even more plus the conditions I experienced were pathetic, trains of bot PvPing, that was a shame)

KroDuK · October 8

One more thing.. make sure you consider parrying in your build.

Pawain · October 8

Some dude PMed me about setting the str and other stats to something less than 700 because he was going to bless the pet.

I said I can not advise that. The game gets busy and if you play event content, you may not be close to the pet when chased by stuff.

ForeverFun · October 8

With the new pets in pub121, I would not use or train up a nightmare.

If you look at the pet damage calculator here (link), it's not unreasonble to reach some possibly unpopular conclusions when considering things like str and tactics.

For weak targets, they are usually a couple hits, so the difference in stats like STR and Tactics are marginal. For boss fights in a group, a few extra points of damage points per hit won't matter, particularly for these new bosses that scale the damage down based on the number of attackers. (*)

STR 700 and tactics 120 take tons of training points, that are often better spent elsewhere, particularly for solo boss scenario, where survivability is important.

(*) Perhaps the math might change slightly if ideal control over pet Chiv usage was provided (link).

KroDuK · October 8

ForeverFun said:

(*) Perhaps the math might change slightly if ideal control over pet Chiv usage was provided (link).

Get out of here!
Pushing your own agenda!

Good stuff tho.

ForeverFun said:

With the new pets in pub121, I would not use or train up a nightmare.

What come after easiest? Power Creep already out of control.

I already thought the CU power was broken and it was only ~70% finish. (tank)
PS: I'm not pushing any agenda of my own! ^^

Pawain said:

Some dude PMed me about setting the str and other stats to something less than 700 because he was going to bless the pet.

I said I can not advise that. The game gets busy and if you play event content, you may not be close to the pet when chased by stuff.

Just pick a pet that can survive on it's own?
Or just an AoE pet that will grab the aggro?
You pretty much losing optimisation, cuz of what exactly?
The dude is building a single target boss killer mount,

.. my recommendation to you would be; "all follow me" and mount the damn thing?

Pawain · October 8

You can talk about the math with Khaelor or Kyro. Lets see if they change the guides to less than 700str. When the drone was on TC. The hardest hitting pet I saw was Ks WW with 760 Str. I dont do Flappys.

KroDuK · October 8

Changing the go post already?

You've seen 700 STR in the OP.. u still recommended STR over mana (overcap STR).. I was kind enough to say it make sense and present him the counter arguments with other stuff to consider like bless and curse.. and you still saying this:

Pawain said:

You can talk about the math with Khaelor or Kyro. Lets see if they change the guides to less than 700str.

*insert a dot dot dot*

Filibustering again, for what reason?
Oh right, NONE.. he has 700 str I couldn't be possibly suggesting.. *smh*

PS: i'm not reading guide.. People like you copying people like me to make them.

PS2: KS was the mage that bought the ornament that got stolen from my lil bro in ~2004. KS was a PvP mage back then on LS.

The lil bro went on my account to farm Gauntlet he grouped with one of his friend (he was the owner of the closest house from Yew Fel gate with a water fall) the DF dies.. my bro dies, but he saw a message he gotten an arty.. his "friend" change the party loot and flex out. (he looted it from his corpse, before a mob does, but he saw it was an orni.. temptation was too great.)

The lil bro never knew what he lost.. I've learn ~2 weeks later from KS himself he bought the orni from the guy 100 USD.

Ask KS if he remember that.

Pawain · October 8

@KroDuK ; I have no clue what you talking about. I have not changed my base pet builds since 2017 when the revamp came out.

A NM does not have over 700 str. Yes I have seen with my eyes that 760 str is better than 700.

I copied you in 2017? Are you delusional?

You ever use a pet with Chivalry? The mana drops to 0 in a very short time. In this case, stamina regen would be more important than mana. A pet that gets hit hard will lose stamina. Equines are squishy and lose it more than a Cu will. Less Stamina => less Swing speed, less damage.

Maybe you should read before writing, you may make an intelligent post one day.

If you want to build pets with less than 700 str, you go girl!

Also since you don't log in, FF is talking about the NL pets and the new dragons in future prodo that have over 700 str. That is why he says don't waste time and scrolls on a PP Nightmare, or any pet until those come out. They also do great damage types, not Physical.

KroDuK · October 8

Image: https://forum.uo.com/uploads/editor/mp/j0yk2pg4ex1w.png

Image: https://forum.uo.com/uploads/editor/qg/gv9lncfyj6ht.png

Pawain · October 8

When did I say he did not have 700 str?

You are the one who told him to put the str to a value of what he already has! Do you read your own posts? He cant add more!!!

I told him to put the points in SR.

KroDuK said:

Mordeed said:

The planner says Ive 152 points left after Ive done the 120s, so whats the best thing to put those into please ?

Since u going with AI/chiv, it make sense to go Str.

KroDuK · October 8

Pawain said:

When did I say he did not have 700 str?

You are the one who told him to put the str to a value of what he already has! Do you read your own posts? He cant add more!!!

KroDuK said:

I was kind enough to say it make sense and present him the counter arguments with other stuff to consider like..

Pawain · October 8

Sorry, but I test my pets on Paragon Balrons. Putting 5 or less Stamina regen on any equine, dragon, Ram, or Bake Kitsune will cause the pet to have less than 150 stamina after they get hit hard. A cu, or other pet types do not have that problem. they are good with 5.

OP can take his pet to one and see for himself, then come back and thank me.

Pawain · October 8

Here is one of my PP Nightmares. He had over 80% intensity so he built really well.
My money goes where my mouth is. AI/Chiv of course.

Do you have one to show us?

Image: https://forum.uo.com/uploads/editor/mc/inf8b5llwr06.png

KroDuK · October 8

150 stam, 600 mana 370 int?. AI/Chiv? Enough said.

*pointing 20 HPR*

Those extra mana point are wasted.. if u'd PvP i could understand.. all those extra should be into INT, on a PvE hero. (like urge mention)

Your NM receive a single blow and he already losing 20% power MINIMUM, overcap that STAM.

HPR.. do you guys don't have bandages? You realise this is a NM right? Even if u greed on that summon ball.. just ride it? 2 hp per seconds is nothing for a good tamer. You losing optimisation on the sexy beast cuz u lacking.

Let's ask a real optimize tamer for fun, what he thinks of your Legacy NM template; @PlayerSkillFTW

Mordeed · October 8

Thank you for your comments guys , the NM will be primarily for single target/ taking down boss's with my bard tamer. One thing I didn't think about was I don't normally have eval Int on him so bless will be alot weaker? if it cannot bless himself. I have 110 eval on a stone though
Without any PS and very low chiv I took it too blood and took on a paragon balron which was rather slow but went fine. My rather broken CU get chewed up there.
I'm thinking atm to put on the extra stam regen and leave the rest of the points unspent untill I have the PS and hopefully more of a clue what I'm doing.

PS what pets are coming with pub 121 ?

PPS can you two shake hands or hug it out? please don't get another one of my posts closed I'm really hoping to learn from both/all of you .

Mordeed · October 8

And , everything I've read has said chiv / ai is the best way to go with most pets? It does seem a bit odd to take Magery off a magical creature but if it's the best then I'm ok with that. If I did change it back to Magery would I loose training points?

Pawain · October 8

Mordeed said:

And , everything I've read has said chiv / ai is the best way to go with most pets? It does seem a bit odd to take Magery off a magical creature but if it's the best then I'm ok with that. If I did change it back to Magery would I loose training points?

You can not change back to magery. It would become magery mastery. You want AI/Chiv on PP NM.

You can make a magery NM using a current 2 slot one.

Pawain · October 8

KroDuK said:

150 stam, 600 mana 370 int?. AI/Chiv? Enough said.

*pointing 20 HPR*

Those extra mana point are wasted.. if u'd PvP i could understand.. all those extra should be into INT, on a PvE hero. (like urge mention)

Your NM receive a single blow and he already losing 20% power MINIMUM, overcap that STAM.

HPR.. do you guys don't have bandages? You realise this is a NM right? Even if u greed on that summon ball.. just ride it? 2 hp per seconds is nothing for a good tamer. You losing optimisation on the sexy beast cuz u lacking.

Let's ask a real optimize tamer for fun, what he thinks of your Legacy NM template; @ PlayerSkillFTW

You should stop drunk posting.

You can't over cap anything on a pet. It must start over cap.

You did not look at the Cah site, they build the same way I do. And so does PSFTW.

Do you know why most pets have 5 SR? Donovan and I made that number after many hours of testing. He wanted less, I thought stamina loss was broken so we settled with 5 in case they changed how a big hit causes stamina loss.

It's all in the taming forum over there since 2017.

KroDuK · October 8

@Mordeed You shouldn't listen to neither of us.. I've experienced very little the animal training and with Paiwan you gonna end up with weak generic pets guide; with similar stats and skills.
It won't even consider simple stuff like: What are you? mage, bard, etc..

Some users could really help u optimize your build like playerskillFTW.
No idea for the 121 pet @foreverfun mention and also, your NM won't have bless without magery/eval, he has chiv now.

If I were you, a bard, i'd look for beefy pet to do something AoE and/or very tanky, max HPR u could save some HP point; like 550HP max and do something wild.. you do you. Just consider stuff like your class, what u doing with it (the optimize one trick poney type of stuff) with whom u playing, etc.

For the generic guide stuff, you could build one pet like that (all around) knows everything but expert at nothing type of pet.

Mordeed said:

I'm thinking atm to put on the extra stam regen and leave the rest of the points unspent untill I have the PS and hopefully more of a clue what I'm doing.

Seems like a solid plan, just keep track of your pets stam/mana with animal lore.. I would be VERY generous on his Stam regen since he's melee AI/chiv.. VERY important to keep him full stam as often as possible.

Make sure you consider parrying on your pet.. it gonna unlock at some point if it's not already.. I suspect it's not.

@paiwan *insert a dot dot dot*

Pawain · October 8

That's a hoot the guy that claims to know nothing about a pet is telling you not to listen to the players who have been making pets since 2017.

He is also ignoring that your pet is already built and you can't change what is already there. You just have 100 or so more points. He advised you to put it in Strength, which you can't because it is at cap.

He now is saying that Cah does not know how to build pets either.

https://www.uo-cah.com/training/legacy-nightmare/specialize-chivalry
Also if you read further: A personal recommendation for the remaining points not being set aside for scrolls is adding another 5 points into Stamina Regen

Amazing how my pet above looks exactly like their final result. Mine has more mana because finding a high intensity mare is not easy.

For anyone else that is new to pets, that is what I call the base build. .

Stamina and dex 150. Strength 700. Intel 370.

Then the standard regens are 30 5 20.

Base damage per second is maximum.

Yes all pvm pets should have the base build like this.

You then use extra points for scrolls, mana, hp that the builder prefers.

Amazing how this base build works for any pet type.

Now I know why he has not responded to my challenge. Let's go to test center and let our pets fight it out and see which one wins. Nor does he show you the stats of his pet.

@Mordeed. Your base pet is perfect. Build them all like that. I am sorry your posts keep getting hijacked by an immature poster who admits he knows nothing about pets. He is only here to troll me.

Pawain · October 8

Here is a masterpiece that I made.
Most players do not know that there are Pre Patch Bake Kitsunes. Before tritons this was one of the few pets you could put an active and passive magic on. That passive magic costs 700 points extra. I do not know how many of these have been made but, I found a high intensity one and made it. I have never seen anyone else use a Bake.

My archer/tamer has one with AI/Feint/Chiv
My second tamer has just an AI/Chiv one. 700 less points needed.
I could make an AI/Chiv from any PP Bake.
I have 2 or 3 more that are not built yet.

As I said, after testing many of these, they are squishy and need more stamina Regen than non squishy pets. Which costs another 60 points.

Image: https://forum.uo.com/uploads/editor/k4/hziumad46ace.png

Bonus points if @KroDuK can tell you why this pet does not have 700 Str.

More points if he can name the pet that can not get 150 Dexterity.

ForeverFun · October 8

To summarize:

If you're soloing bosses, there is usually negative benefit to 700STR and 120 tactics, over putting the points elsewhere.
If you're soloing weak monsters, there is no benefit to 700STR and 120 tactics.
If you're in a group > 5 players, there is no benefit to 700STR and 120 tactics, especially with the new class of bosses.
If you're a well setup mage tamer, with SDI gear, high EI, and slayer spell books, you'll generally do more damage than your pet, whether it has 300 STR or 700STR.
Wrestling (>= 120), Parry (120) are easy to justify.
If you're pet is built as a tank, completely different than the 700STR ChivAI build, you don't need Vet skill.

I stopped using Chiv/AI pets a few years ago. I couldn't imagine having a stable full of ChivAI pets

Pawain · October 8

I would be doing a dis service telling someone to build a pet that does not do maximum damage.

This thread is about a nightmare that you can not get anymore. It is not a disposable pet. I am not goping to advise a player to put less than 120 scrolls on these type pets. Including Bane Dragons and Dread Mares.

Sure you can have pets made for special events. I do that with toons. But, that is getting into advanced training. I go with telling a new player to taming to go with a good base pet. I have never been accused of wasting scrolls.
I have a Triton made for Scalis, I have a Triton made for Corgul. They die fast at any other encounter.

Also, As you see above, I don't have 400 120 pet scrolls or plats lying around. I also cut down tactics and any other scroll that I don't have. (The only 120 scrolls I say are must have are the Magic scrolls. Not Magery, pets do not fizzle, 110 is fine.) Some argue that 120 wrest and Parry are "must have"

Going to play NL, yall enjoy urselves.

My saying, The best defense is a dead Target.

KroDuK · October 8

ForeverFun said:

If you're pet is built as a tank, completely different than the 700STR ChivAI build, you don't need Vet skill.

This part.. I did not do any science but on paper the HPR, on most pets.. specially as a mage tamer (I can support me bandages) I was like meh.. same for the recommended (mandatory, for some; 600hp)

I've train two pets (hvn't finish neither).. the CU had HPR but he would remain alone, a lot!.. I would walk around doing EQ or spamming FS while meditating, type of stuff.
I could see someone using a beefy leech pet as a bard no Vet skill with some chiv to support, if needed.

But yeah, good post.
You have so much stuff to consider.. like the more stats u got the worst curse is going to be.

Why would u have the same amount of HP/mana/str/int on a melee AI pet with no healing/leech as u would with a beefy tank with some sort of auto healing..

Why would u have 600 mana with only 370int as a PvE Hero single target boss.. after the engagement that 600 mana is legit useless and he knows it but still.. u losing power neglecting INT.. if u would PvP I could understand.. u don't wanna sustain but do quick engagement.

Anyway, the absolute like that are good for the Paiwan of this world.

ForeverFun · October 9

Pawain said:

I would be doing a dis service telling someone to build a pet that does not do maximum damage.

Sure you can have pets made for special events.

My saying, The best defense is a dead Target.

The bullet points above are for the general case, covering almost all game content.

Sure, there are special cases, some that come to mind:

Don't take pets with more than >125 mana to zipactriol.
Skip using AI pets when dealing with targets that are immune to AI.

Additional "general case" bullet points:

For solo play, you're usually better off with discordance (120) on the pet (assuming player hasn't put 240 points into discord+music), vs. Chivalry (120). A discorded target is easier to hit and won't hit you/pet as often (skill drop), and you and pet will do more damage (reduced resists).
Most (all?) of the other magical abilities simply require more control or a bunch of fixes to be competitive. You're often better off with no magical ability (or discordance).
Any time you're having to cast heal or cure on your pet, that's taking away offensive damage output potential from a mage caster. That's one reason why pets with "healing" are a plus. But a pet that has zero mana because it's [mis-]using/spamming chivalry increases the odds of a dead pet (is it healing itself?), or lower damage output.

I don't know if you've bothered to do side by side comparisons with the damage calculator, to see the miniscule differences in damage. That's even ignoring the other factors mentioned above. Most bosses are dead in under three minutes these days.

KroDuK · October 9

ForeverFun said:
I don't know if you've bothered to do side by side comparisons with the damage calculator, to see the miniscule differences in damage. That's even ignoring the other factors mentioned above. Most bosses are dead in under three minutes these days.

I was shocked when I did (it was for the last year event with hounds) how little STR affect their dmg.. when u start adding stuff like ennemy of one and/or discord.. it start looking more interesting..
Wich explain why I went from a CU to a Rune Beetle (their melt armor ability, on top)

When u say most bosses are dead in under three minutes tho.. I would bring a nuance; a dumb example: the bone daemon, my mana was full at the first one.. but after that I would chain them.. at best I would regen ~200 mana while I was looting.

Again it all depend, cuz if we speak something like most peerless boss.. A bigger mana pool for more AI on the engagement could be interesting over more mana regen.

You should 100% build, none generic, one trick poney pets for your stable.. You just need 2 all around pet at most.. one u can ride and one u cannot, imo.

Howdy, Stranger!

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Legacy Nightmare

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