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KroDuK · 1:50PM

Lokea said:
We aren't going to get any more expansions, boosters, or theme packs. You know how I know that? Because the last and only the booster (High Seas - 2010), the theme packs (Gothic and Rustic - 2011), the deco collection (King's Collection - 2013), and the expansion (Time of Legends, 2015) didn't hit the numbers they wanted.

As for the Booster pack they announced more than a decade ago, they would stop those, it was a failure from the start.. it was planned to release multiple booster (smaller extension) instead of doing huge extension like SA was.. they scrap that real fast.. HS was just to promote EC and EC was still very unpopular.. they did not help themselves on their new planning with their first EC user booster..
IT did what it was ultimately supposed to do.. help their baby client popularity.

the collector pack no idea what happen with those.. i just skip those news personally.

As for ToL.. what numbers are u talking exactly?? they legit GAVE IT FOR FREE to any sub account when it release... surely u don't speak about money.. it was FREE!
If u speak about old players coming back.. it was an utopia.. we didn't asked for more content but fix like on the CC or the power creeping with all the damage SA have done to the game like Magic Finder.. BODS, nerfing 95% of the content, mainstreaming Sampies.. etc,etc..

If u mean they wanted people to sub MORE account.. I mean sket has 21?? god damn.

Lokea · 3:10PM

KroDuK said:

As for the Booster pack they announced more than a decade ago, they would stop those, it was a failure from the start.. it was planned to release multiple booster (smaller extension) instead of doing huge extension like SA was.. they scrap that real fast.. HS was just to promote EC and EC was still very unpopular.. they did not help themselves on their new planning with their first EC user booster..
IT did what it was ultimately supposed to do.. help their baby client popularity.

I disagree on High Seas - if you were around before HS, using a boat really sucked at times. HS ultimately brought a lot of activity to the water, and not just for the serious fishermen. It was a good idea in terms of using these booster packs to add to various aspects of UO - if you weren't into fishing or nautical stuff, you didn't have to pay for it, but if you were, it really opened things up for you. I would have liked to have seen what they had planned for other booster packs (we used to joke with them that many of us would have paid $15 for a basement booster pack).

I know you hate the EC and High Seas, but do you honestly believe that everything they added in HS, the new ships, cannon, boat movement by mouse, improvements to fishing, etc. was done just to help the EC? Really? Are you being serious? Everything listed below was to help the EC?

Ultima Online: High Seas - UOGuide, the Ultima Online Encyclopedia

If they wanted to help the EC in a dramatic fashion, you know what they would have done? Improved the artwork beyond what was tried with KR. The beginning and the end right there. The artwork. That's how you help the EC.

Lokea · 3:19PM

KroDuK said:

As for ToL.. what numbers are u talking exactly?? they legit GAVE IT FOR FREE to any sub account when it release... surely u don't speak about money..

The only numbers that mattered for ToL were subs, new and returning, which is exactly why they released it for free.

If it brought in several tens of thousands of new and former players, we would have seen more expansions. But it didn't hit whatever numbers they wanted. The other things (theme packs, deco, collections, boosters) were about revenue from existing players, but ToL was all about the subs.

KroDuK · 3:30PM

Lokea said:
I disagree on High Seas - if you were around before HS, using a boat really sucked at times.

I will stop you right here.. I can see where it's going.. not the point.. upgrading water content was great on paper. Do not ignore the rest of the message.. u always does that taking only one part of a sentence to build a whole brick on it and ignoring all the rest.. this is 100% not the point i'm making here.. HS was unplayable on CC.. cuz CC was build with a real bare minimum water content.. it sucked.. yes.. cuz it was almost useless except for the oasis spawn and housing (islands)a

ps: It would not sucked at times.. it would just suck.. agreed.

KroDuK · 3:35PM

Lokea said:
The only numbers that mattered for ToL were subs, new and returning, which is exactly why they released it for free.

Exactly my point.. it was doomed to fail from the start.. (except the new sub, was not new "players"; keep reading)

Lokea said:

If it brought in several tens of thousands of new and former players, we would have seen more expansions. But it didn't hit whatever numbers they wanted.

Exactly my point. "new"

Lokea said:

The other things (theme packs, deco, collections, boosters) were about revenue from existing players,

100% agreed.. but i'd prefer not add more "talk smack" I prefered to be hypocritical and ignored that part while closing my eyes cuz... (u won't like this)

Lokea said:
but ToL was all about the subs.

diagree here.. it was the same goal as those theme park "deco" pack.. they wanted the actual players base to sub all their account to show big numbers that month, but the result was even worse, imo, for the game cuz.. like they killed even more the old content with a new gauntlet and other stuff like that.. while shifting to their new game models with the numbers they have shown that month.. sub as much as u can we gonna give u bribe events as a reward for your trains of bots.. ToL number every couple of months.. do as u please.

As a retuning/old player.. asking them to pay money for ToL when the power creep is already a problem.. to acces the new gauntlet, some pet skills, OP stuff like specialisation, etc? is... U ask me to contribute to the problems?? while paying u more money?

It was not for making good money again with new players, nor for older players to come back.. it was the same optic as those "deco" pack.. asking more from existing players base.. like u are a lot with tons of account (for housing) subbing them one every ~3 months.. that ToL months.. they wanted to show big numbers.. that's it. but how?? at what cost? for what?

Lokea · 3:42PM

For @KroDuK and @Skett and others who hate NL, hate the EC, hate a lot of stuff in general, what ideas do you have to bring new players in and former players back?

I really want to know what ideas you all have.

Because you see, my having been gone from UO from the early 2010s up through a few months ago seems to have given me a perspective that some of you don't seem to have, and that is this - doing what they've been doing year-after-year since ToL, minus EJ, you know rolling out the event items and the holiday items and the updates here and there, hasn't done UO any real long-term good.

When I left, you couldn't place a keep on any shards, you couldn't place in New Magincia or close to Luna or outside of Zento on any shard. When I came back this year, I placed right at one of the gates of Zento with no problem on my original/home shard, I could have placed in several places in New Magincia, I could have placed very close to Luna (just one or two screens over). I could have placed a keep in Fel. And when I went around to the various other shards, outside of Atlantic and a few Japanese shards, the story was the same - lots and lots of prime real estate, including plenty of keep spots. It's stunning how much of a ghost town many shards are now. It made me even think about not re-subbing.

Maybe sticking to the events and holiday items and other stuff in that nature kept the pixel collectors around, maybe it kept the whales around, but it's not bringing in new players or bringing back old ones.. "Whales" are a term used in gaming for a minority of players who provide a large amount of revenue for a game. I would imagine that UO has its share of whales - I know I used to spend well over $100 a month during my prime playing.

If they don't start trying new things, is everybody who is subscribed here in May of 2025 still going to be around in September of 2027 and is the revenue going to be the same?

UO needs something to bring in new and former players, and it needs something to get new players acclimated really fast so that they stick around.

KroDuK · 3:50PM

Lokea said:

For @ KroDuK and @ Skett and others who hate NL, hate the EC, hate a lot of stuff in general, what ideas do you have to bring new players in and former players back?

I really want to know what ideas you all have.

*smh*

Skett · 4:05PM

@Lokea ;
to answer your first question

I had a friend whose brother is one of the largest residential properties investors. They hired me to cleanup several properties and replace the contractors not performing. It was an area of construction I wasn’t very familiar with a lot of seismic and geologic work I wasn’t at all comfortable with. The first week I started as the new site lead superintendent a few of the contractors tried to test me and would start asking me questions and the process and procedures to try and make me look incompetent. I simply told the why are you asking me how to do YOUR Job? Apparently I’ve made a huge mistake I really thought you knew what you was doing your fired I’ll find someone who does. It’s not my job to know your job it’s my job to see to it that you do your job. Guess what none of the contractors or subs ever tried to pink me again

when you go out to eat does the chiefs ask you how to prepare your meal NO

we are paying this team to create content for its players that we all can play not just a tiny niche crowd so don’t ask me ask them it’s their JOB not mine

Skett · 4:15PM

Acclimated really quick? So if any new players attempt to play NL they have to do a insane amount of reading and boring quest to gain skill points fast Which NOTHING like production shards if not you take the other path and are punished and skill gains are slower
the templates are not the same the weapons armor nothing the same as production. Then after you have learned all that your sent to shards that have a completely play style and the cost of items are much much more expensive and some of the better items you can’t get because they are shard bound

NL is not for new players its just a small add on item based niche games for a very small crowd

They should have listened to the majority of the players but they didn’t

KroDuK · 4:20PM

On paper NL looks solid.. it sounded like the reborn system on T4C.. like u could level up a character play on it for monthsss.. then to a certain point reborn lvl 1 (for 5 stats points added.. like 0.4% extra power wth a hardcap on reborn (usually 3 to 10, depending on your server.)

I really thought the "reborn" system/ legacy system was just to add a good deep theorycrafting system.. u do your own "DNA" and mix your blood line with other players to do somehing unique on a old school feeling UO.. no power creep, solid open world PvP, good champs.. viable builds.. but yeah nah.. it's a passion project.. making a new, mostly PvE, theme park griefers light UO version every year.. that's gonna end up being another bribe, at best, for actual players.

The MINIMUM NL could have done is replace the old TC only players server.. most of them went on illegal server.. but you have to offer them something better than their FREE shards, you know.. and theme park ain't it.

Skett · 4:31PM

Theme parks are usually fun for the masses NL is more of an opera book reading musical club..,

KroDuK · 4:45PM

lol.. theme park can be a lot of fun.. but the problem of theme park u need to keep releasing content on them.. where a sandbox do not require that much new content.. when it's a good one.

You just work on tools for your players with minimal new content.

Like open world housing.. is one of the best tool UO got.. I really thought HS would use that tool.. like make guild housing (islands) for navy bases for bigger guild (king of the hill mini game) and other stuff for good OW PvP.. finally it was mostly only to promote EC and it's automation.. like fishing white pearl while watching a movie

Lokea · 7:51PM

Skett said:

when you go out to eat does the chiefs ask you how to prepare your meal NO

we are paying this team to create content for its players that we all can play not just a tiny niche crowd so don’t ask me ask them it’s their JOB not mine

And when you go out to eat, if the chef decides to add to the menu, do you get upset and claim that they are ignoring their other dishes, even though you can order those other dishes on the menu and still enjoy them?

And we'd have to define what "content" means, because some became upset when they mentioned they were scaling back on holiday items, as if those were somehow content vital to UO, when in reality it's pixel crack for a "tiny niche crowd" while for the rest it's something nice to toss in an overcrowded house or up on a vendor.

To me, real content is the larger publishes, and yes, things like NL. Not every bit of content appeals to every person, and it's not meant to.

Lokea · 7:56PM

Skett said:

They should have listened to the majority of the players but they didn’t

Where is this opinion of the "majority of the players" located, because it's not the official forums - I check these every day, and sometimes there's less 10 posts from 4-5 people, and most are events or selling/buying rares.

The forums are a tiny, tiny fraction of UO's playerbase, but it's where people can complain to the dev team if they want to.

And I can tell you from experience that the majority of players would probably like..*drumroll* more players, and so something has to change.

Victim_Of_Siege · 8:01PM

Skett · 8:26PM

@Lokea

ive never been out to dinner and the chef decided to give me something different than what I ordered but then again I don’t eat fast food or consider them a restaurant either but enjoy your meal I guess

you keep going on about holiday items I haven’t liked any of them for a long time but the events have been fun pumpkin fields trick or treat krampus ect some go way back and are fun holiday events sorry if those offended you

Most of players are not playing NL so one could guess that would be the majority of players don’t like NL ? No ? It’s math you know numbers ? How many people are playing on NL not counting multiple accounts and bots. It’s a very small amount compared to the amount of players not playing that would be the drummmrollll deep breath Minority ? No ?

Pie is good just ask Mesanna and she shares hers in

NamelessJourney · 8:30PM

KroDuK said:

Lokea said:
I disagree on High Seas - if you were around before HS, using a boat really sucked at times.

I u always does that taking only one part of a sentence to build a whole brick on it and ignoring all the rest.

Seem like the pot calling the kettle black to me.

KroDuK · 9:23PM

Victim_Of_Siege said:

everyone stfu and someone bring this cat a pie!!

ok nvm..

NamelessJourney said:
Seem like the pot calling the kettle black to me.

I answered to every point he made ^^
He quote an entire paragraph talking about many HS point; like the EC. Finds out, he only needed to quote a few words within a single sentence.. the last time it was the same.. to the point we start talking about harry potters MMO to get somewhere cuz our "convo" was..

PS: I thought it was clear.. the irony when i quoted different sentences; with the same answer.

Lokea · 9:43PM

Skett said:

Acclimated really quick? So if any new players attempt to play NL they have to do a insane amount of reading and boring quest to gain skill points fast Which NOTHING like production shards if not you take the other path and are punished and skill gains are slower

Sometimes I wonder if you even play the same game as I am. Skill gains on production shards are only fast if you read a ton of tutorials (and you have to know where they are and what the current ones are and not some 15 year-old one that ranks highly in Google) and have a lot of gold in the bank. I know this, because I have GMed a bunch of stuff over the past few months that I didn't years ago, and because I have helped my kids GM a ton of stuff. I burned through tens of thousands of raw materials and millions in gold to rapidly finish off several characters (and these are not obscure skills).

A new player would be screwed if they came in and wanted to gain a lot of skill points fast in the non-combatant roles. And if they wanted to do combat, well thanks to everybody steering them to Atlantic, they aren't going to be able to afford the gear they need to survive.

UO is unlike any other MMO and having watched my kids work their way through production UO, I keep seeing little things here and there that are a problem for new players who are used to other MMOs, and I see so many things that might just cause new players to quit and it bugs the absolute heck out of me to see those places that might stop a new player in their tracks. I have played through a lot of other MMO's tutorials, and my kids have done the more mainstream MMO tutorials (WOW, Final Fantasy, Runescape, and a few others) and UO desperately needs something to guide people along for a bit more than they get out of New Haven.

And people need to stop steering newbies to Atlantic.

And yes, even a true sandbox MMO needs something to guide new players along. NL is not perfect, but it's something that players from other MMOs can more easily grasp, and at the same time, there are regular UO players playing it.

Lokea · 9:49PM

Skett said:

@ Lokea

ive never been out to dinner and the chef decided to give me something different than what I ordered but then again I don’t eat fast food or consider them a restaurant either but enjoy your meal I guess

Did you login to UO one day and the production shards were all gone and only NL was in their places?

Because that hasn't happened to me. LS and Siege are still right there for me, and if I want to scroll down the list and hit up NL for something different, I can do that as well.

It's funny, we probably agree more than you realize, and if you wanted the TLDR for most of my posts, it's this: Whatever has been going on over the last decade has not worked. They have to do something new. You may not like it, and that simply means it's not geared towards you, but at the end of the day, your production shards are still there, but they will only remain there if there are enough people coming in to replace people who age out, get bored, have kids, decide it's not worth it financially, or find something in another version of UO that they prefer (maybe a 1990s PvP fest), etc.

The alternative is that they could have put NL onto the production shards and changed some systems and skill gains and guilds, etc., but my guess is a whole lot of people would complain about that.

Skett · 9:53PM

@lokea im not going to read all that ill just say you 1000% correct

KroDuK · 10:00PM

Lokea said:

Skett said:

Acclimated really quick? So if any new players attempt to play NL they have to do a insane amount of reading and boring quest to gain skill points fast Which NOTHING like production shards if not you take the other path and are punished and skill gains are slower

Sometimes I wonder if you even play the same game as I am. Skill gains on production shards are only fast if you read a ton of tutorials and have a lot of gold in the bank. I know this, because I have GMed a bunch of stuff I didn't years ago, and because I have helped my kids GM a ton of stuff. I burned through tens of thousands of raw materials and millions in gold to rapidly finish off several characters (and these are not obscure skills).

He's saying.. u can level fast on NL via questing and other stuff that is NOTHING like UO.

You telling him not sure if we play the same game cuz skill gains on production can be expensive and only fast if u do a tons of reasearch..

His point.. yes u can level up fast and easy but it does not prepare you for what UO really is...
You arguing with no one else than yourself here..

Lokea said:
A new player would be screwed if they came in and wanted to gain a lot of skill points fast in the non-combatant roles. And if they wanted to do combat, well thanks to everybody steering them to Atlantic, they aren't going to be able to afford the gear they need to survive.

UO is unlike any other MMO and having watched my kids work their way through production UO, I keep seeing little things here and there that are a problem for new players who are used to other MMOs, and I see so many things that might just cause new players to quit and it bugs the absolute heck out of me to see those places that might stop a new player in their tracks. I have played through a lot of other MMO's tutorials, and my kids have done the more mainstream MMO tutorials (WOW, Final Fantasy, Runescape, and a few others) and UO desperately needs something to guide people along for a bit more than they get out of New Haven.

And people need to stop steering newbies to Atlantic.

And yes, even a true sandbox MMO needs something to guide new players along. NL is not perfect, but it's something that players from other MMOs can more easily grasp, and at the same time, there are regular UO players playing it.

Good point.. about noob could use a tutorial and better guidance.. pretty sure Skett also agrees with that.. (never seen him disagreed on that)

Personally I really thought the new haven stuff for new players was filling this tutorial need and guidance.. I never tried it personally.
Let's wrap an advanced character token with new accounts on their first sub.. do we still need NL after that?

PS: I'd totally agree with ATL for new players but with the heresy of a 14 yrs xfer shield token.. I wouldn't recommend a noob to start anywhere else than ATL or EU.. as for returning players.. use those dead shards to rebuild your economy, 100%.. u know what u doing (can do it alone) and closer to the 14 yrs.. a noob on a ghost shard is a bad idea, imo.. and like Skeet mention.. it's not NL that gonna prepare them for that. (wich u totally ignored and went somewhere else; the tutorial stuff for NL a game that is nothing like UO prodo)

Lokea · 10:06PM

Skett said:

Most of players are not playing NL so one could guess that would be the majority of players don’t like NL ? No ? It’s math you know numbers ? How many people are playing on NL not counting multiple accounts and bots. It’s a very small amount compared to the amount of players not playing that would be the drummmrollll deep breath Minority ? No ?

You could apply the same logic to any shard that isn't Atlantic or a couple of the Japanese shards, but it's also what time of day you are logging along with other factors.

I've seen more players on NL than I see on a lot of production shards. Is it that they don't like Origin, Baja, Oceania, Lake Austin, Siege, Mugen, and a dozen+ other production shards? Or is it that it's depending upon the shard and what time you login, and how much of the population are just paying to keep their houses/vendors, etc.?

One nice thing about NL for existing players is that you don't have to be in a rush to play it right now. Yes, some players would love to know what's going to transfer before jumping in, but for a lot of players who are interested, it's there, and it's not as time-limited as some events were in the past, so they can wait and play it when it fits their schedule. That's certainly my case. I've got a list of things to do on LS and Siege before I commit fully to NL.

Skett · 10:13PM

@Lokea ; your logic is extremely flawed and i really dont feel like pushing a stone atm

KroDuK · 10:15PM

Lokea said:
I've seen more players on NL than I see on a lot of production shards.

How big is NL map? Does it have a lot of content? You know.. since u compare it with production.. just checking, if we considering everything here. My feeling was.. 90% of the time NL was slighty more populated than a dead shard.. with a 10% crowded.

Lokea said:

One nice thing about NL for existing players is that you don't have to be in a rush to play it right now. Yes, some players would love to know what's going to transfer before jumping in, but for a lot of players who are interested, it's there, and it's not as time-limited as some events were in the past, so they can wait and play it when it fits their schedule. That's certainly my case. I've got a list of things to do on LS and Siege before I commit fully to NL.

It's one of his point he keeps repeating.. it's good for a small portion of existing players..
imo Skett almost sound scared to be forced to go grind stuff to extract from NL.

Pawain · 10:19PM

@Lokea who ru on LS?

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